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Thread: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

  1. #26
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    6013 is not a bad rod if you take a couple of extra steps. You really need to run it at the high end of its range to give the arc enough force to push the slag back. You also need to run a bit more rod angle for the same reason. If you do this, it works fine in my experience. I have never had porosity with it like you frequently hear people complaining about. 7014 is probably a tad easier to run but it takes many more amps for the same size rod. But 7014 is a true "drag rod". You can just shove it against the metal and keep it there, no need to worry about arc length so long as you keep the flux in contact with the metal being welded.
    I have no porosity issues I can see when I make a bead. Half of this will be vertical up as well, as far as drag angle goes.

    My 7018 start porosity issues I’ve posted in the past were resolved by using clean shiny metal instead of raw stuff. I’m also using the blue label Lincoln trash from Home Depot everyone said is horrible. This stuff is also labeled 7018AC and I’m using it on DC like an idiot, but it seems to weld fine?
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 11-07-2021 at 03:02 PM.
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  2. #27
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    I have no porosity issues I can see when I make a bead. Half of this will be vertical up as well, as far as drag angle goes.

    My 7018 start porosity issues I’ve posted in the past were resolved by using clean shiny metal instead of raw stuff. I’m also using the blue label Lincoln trash from Home Depot everyone said is horrible. This stuff is also labeled 7018AC and I’m using it on DC like an idiot, but it seems to weld fine?
    7018AC on DC is just fine. Maybe a touch smoother because of the additives to make it run on AC.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    7018AC on DC is just fine. Maybe a touch smoother because of the additives to make it run on AC.
    I read that after I posted it. Is it just because it used to be for AC they leave the name AC?



    Side note, for the vertical up welds is 1/8" making it more difficult to control than a thinner rod like a 3/32? Its 3/16" material. I ran some test beads at work last night since i've never even used our multimatic for stick welding. Oddly enough it took like 20 less amps to run the rod than my 210mp or sw200 would. Was fine once I got the amps right though. I'll probably burn through a box of rods on scrap at home to make sure I don't embarrass myself at work lol.
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 11-07-2021 at 03:34 PM.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    I read that after I posted it. Is it just because it used to be for AC they leave the name AC?



    Side note, for the vertical up welds is 1/8" making it more difficult to control than a thinner rod like a 3/32? Its 3/16" material. I ran some test beads at work last night since i've never even used our multimatic for stick welding. Oddly enough it took like 20 less amps to run the rod than my 210mp or sw200 would. Was fine once I got the amps right though. I'll probably burn through a box of rods on scrap at home to make sure I don't embarrass myself at work lol.
    3/32" would be easier to control on the vertical welds. For flat, horizontal and overhead I would use 1/8". Anyways, get your fit as good as possible. It wouldn't hurt to have some 6011 in 1/8" on hand for tacking and as a root where your fit up isn't great. Your going to have some gaps where the end of a tube fits up to the radiused corners on the tubes as well.

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  7. #30
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I have forgot why we did not use 7024 or 7014.
    But fun to watch 7024 weld by it self by laying down on part. We did not use it on metal buildings.

    I know why we did not use E7018 and was cost of rod and it had to be hot before welding.

    I did find welding E7018 with a good DC welder generator was very smooth to run and great for overhead too. I used a Hobart 213 welder for welding E7018.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    6013 is not a bad rod if you take a couple of extra steps. You really need to run it at the high end of its range to give the arc enough force to push the slag back. You also need to run a bit more rod angle for the same reason. If you do this, it works fine in my experience. I have never had porosity with it like you frequently hear people complaining about. 7014 is probably a tad easier to run but it takes many more amps for the same size rod. But 7014 is a true "drag rod". You can just shove it against the metal and keep it there, no need to worry about arc length so long as you keep the flux in contact with the metal being welded.

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  9. #31
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    3/32" would be easier to control on the vertical welds. For flat, horizontal and overhead I would use 1/8". Anyways, get your fit as good as possible. It wouldn't hurt to have some 6011 in 1/8" on hand for tacking and as a root where your fit up isn't great. Your going to have some gaps where the end of a tube fits up to the radiused corners on the tubes as well.
    I was assuming where the radius meets the tube end id probably have to do 3 passes to properly fill it. After I cut this thing down I have all the time in the world to put this back together. No point cutting corners anywhere.

    Messing around last night the welds I made were fine but the slag from the 6013 vertical was brutal. Until you chip it off it looks like you made the worst weld of all time.
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 11-07-2021 at 04:34 PM.
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  10. #32
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Thanks for the input

    Itís gonna be welded with a Miller multimatic 200.

    We have an old thunderbolt 225 here also but i donít see myself carrying it aroundÖ
    If you have a mig machine, why donít you use self shielded flux core?


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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by ljmelius View Post
    If you have a mig machine, why don’t you use self shielded flux core?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Most of it is my desire to practice stick welding on company time. It’s a good skill to have and I should be better at it.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    While on the subject, can I extend the leads on the DC inverter? Do I just buy the DINS connectors of proper size and extension wire?

    The connectors on these inverter machines are pretty tiny
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  13. #35
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    The leads are usually sized in accordance to the duty cycle. Just up the size and you shouldn't have any problems. Done it myself.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I inverter is small enough carry it. Use an extension cord.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I agree

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by ljmelius View Post
    If you have a mig machine, why donít you use self shielded flux core?


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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    While on the subject, can I extend the leads on the DC inverter? Do I just buy the DINS connectors of proper size and extension wire?

    The connectors on these inverter machines are pretty tiny
    Certainly, as long as practical

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    Certainly, as long as practical
    I’m on a 50’ 6gauge extension cord. It doesn’t matter on the front end, at worst it will just trip the duty cycle sooner? Which would make sense being it’s a symptom of heat buildup.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    I’m on a 50’ 6gauge extension cord. It doesn’t matter on the front end, at worst it will just trip the duty cycle sooner? Which would make sense being it’s a symptom of heat buildup.
    I was talking about the welding leads, to be clear.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    13 is not low current. Its mild penetration and similar to 18 in current. I like 6011 for sheet, if I can 1/8. Low current and fast freeze.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    I was talking about the welding leads, to be clear.
    I’m talking about extending the lead to the stinger. It doesn’t matter if it’s longer? There has to be a drawback.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Needs to be bigger if its longer especially if its running toward the top of the dial.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Iím talking about extending the lead to the stinger. It doesnít matter if itís longer? There has to be a drawback.
    Just like any other conductor that is not a superconductor, it will experience losses of V. Since stick welding high-amperage, low-voltage (relatively speaking), there could be considerable loss due to the relatively high amperage, which is what heats up the wire and causes the losses.

    15ft of 4awg @ 100A DC loses about ~1V
    15ft of 4awg @ 160A DC loses about ~1.5V
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    A couple thoughts -

    - You're likely going to be on the upper end of the power that your Multimatic 200 is going to be able to run with 1/8" 7018 (the Jets I mentioned look like they are 110-160a https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/P...lh78mrrsp_smaw). Your machine is spec'd (if I am looking at the correct specs - current Multimatic 200 on Millers' site) as being able to run 150 amps at 30% duty cycle on 240v in stick-mode. Your 1/8" 7018 rods are likely going to take every bit of that current. That means you are going to be welding pretty slow - you'll need to pause between rods for a bit.

    - Adding length to the cables can be done, however it is going to affect your welding performance. The larger gauge cables you can get the better. If you try to run a lot of current through small cables you will loose a lot of voltage at the arc. This gets to my next point -

    - With a 50ft 6 gauge extension cord I would recommend you check the input voltage - under load - at the end of the extension cord where the machine plugs in to. I've fought with voltage issues in the past. They can be bears to tackle. So keep this in mind - you could be taxing the circuit more than you are aware of going in to this. I would check voltage prior to much test welding - that way if it is tanking too far you aren't going to make the machine too unhappy (or possibly cause damage to it).

    - As to the amperage you found being less than your other machine - that is very common. The amperage adjustment on machines makes it to where you can dial in welding performance to that machine. Always take the number with a grain of salt and never jump on a machine you've never run before expecting the same results as another - because chances are you aren't going to get the same results. In other words - the amperage is only a loose measurement of heat input. Arc voltage and amperage gives you the wattage. If your arc voltage on one machine is 10v higher, or 10v lower, that makes a noticeable difference in the amperage.

    - You mention you have access to a Thunderbolt. If that machine is DC-capable, believe it or not, I would think about wheeling that thing over to where you're welding. For that project and of the two machines that would be my preference. You can't kill those old transformer machines easily and they will keep on trucking under load - totally contrary to the operational theory of your Multimatic 200 inverter. That is why I have an old transformer here - Lincoln Idealarc 250. If I was welding other than a small project or light repair the Idealarc is what I would prefer - no worry in the world on overloading it at currents higher than any rod I have can go and I don't have any 3/16"+ rods to get up towards the upper end of the current (300a-ish).

    - Another note with the power circuit and transformer welder - your transformer welder won't care too much about the voltage. It will most certainly affect arc performance, but you won't hurt the machine. The same may not be the case with the Multimatic 200.

    Good luck with it!

  25. #46
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    150 amps at 30% duty cycle on 240v in stick-mode. Your 1/8" 7018 rods are likely going to take every bit of that current
    Huh??!! I run 1/8th 7018 at 125 amps almost exclusively unless I am going uphill in which case I use less amps. You shouldn't need 150 amps for a 1/8th inch rod.

    If you try to run a lot of current through small cables you will loose a lot of voltage at the arc.
    It really depends on how much length you are adding. If he adds 25 feet, its not going to change much.

    With a 50ft 6 gauge extension cord I would recommend you check the input voltage - under load - at the end of the extension cord where the machine plugs in to.
    The MM200 owners manual specifies 14 gauge conductors for the 240V electrical service with a 25 amp breaker. He is going to be fine with a 6 gauge extension cord. In fact it is overkill. He will have no problems with voltage loss due to the extension cord.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Huh??!! I run 1/8th 7018 at 125 amps almost exclusively unless I am going uphill in which case I use less amps. You shouldn't need 150 amps for a 1/8th inch rod.



    It really depends on how much length you are adding. If he adds 25 feet, its not going to change much.



    The MM200 owners manual specifies 14 gauge conductors for the 240V electrical service with a 25 amp breaker. He is going to be fine with a 6 gauge extension cord. In fact it is overkill. He will have no problems with voltage loss due to the extension cord.
    Ya sense a bit of overthinking here in this thread? I've built plenty of pipe racks to go from building to building from 4x4x3/16" square tube and we always just did hot downhills with 6010. The cross tubes had a lot more load than this tower thing.

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  29. #48
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    i ordered some 7018 in 3/32 and have 1/8 on hand. Forney brand from Amazon.

    For $15, I’ll use this for all the practice opportunity I can get out of it.

    As for that thunderbolt I mentioned, it works, but it’s gonna be an issue to get it 20 feet up so it’s closer enough to where I’m working vs the lightweight mm200. Thing weighs absolutely nothing

    As for extending the leads, i was also talking like 10 feet not 100.
    Last edited by BrooklynBravest; 11-07-2021 at 10:12 PM.
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  31. #49
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I have 25 feet stinger, about 40 total leads, on my htp in the shop, it works because the machine is stationary. My esab 160 has stock. I carry it on my shoulder or park it near or hang it from my ladder.

    Probably no issue with 10 extra, buy copper is heavy and must be stored.

  32. #50
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Dont have to extend both, I have 25 ft 4 for my little one and makes it easy to hop around doing building. Even though the whole thing is portable and nice to have the local control it is hard to get away from simply dragging the stinger. The machine is light but have 3 cords to move to put a tack on the other end.
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