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Thread: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

  1. #51
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    Dont have to extend both, I have 25 ft 4 for my little one and makes it easy to hop around doing building. Even though the whole thing is portable and nice to have the local control it is hard to get away from simply dragging the stinger. The machine is light but have 3 cords to move to put a tack on the other end.
    The stock stinger is like 10 feet at best on the Mm200 and my 210Mp. It’s basically nothing if you’re not next to a workbench.

    Side note, appears I’m a total butcher doing vertical up stick welds. Who knew it was that much harder lol.

    1/8” is definitely too big of a rod for vertical up on 3/16 if i lowered the amps the rod barely stays burning if I raise it the plate just turns to mush.

    Guess i need to make some coupons…
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  2. #52
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Jody collier (Weldingtipsandtricks.com) has some decent videos covering welding vertical up with stick. I highly recommend those.



    Miller Multimatic 255

  3. #53
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I've had a lot of luck running 6011 up. I would probably be running 6011 for this, at least 6011 then cap with 7018 if needed.
    Airco Auto-Pak 130

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  4. #54
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    So witch rod did you use?

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Let me preface this by saying I donít stick weld often.

    I can do it, i know what a good sound weld looks like but Iím not being featured in any magazinesÖ

    That said, i have to cut this tower up, relocate it and put it back together.

    Iíd like to use 6013 because I just know Iíll make cleaner welds with it.

    So that said, am i taking a risk on strength using 6013 to get nicer welds or is it a non concern in the application?

    This tower is 6x6 3/16 wall tube. So itís going have a good 24Ē of weld on each section.

    Also, this thing is a death trap as it sits welding wise and has held up for 10+ years. No idea what hack did it the first time around. Itís got one weld on each pieceÖ

    This is a rope training tower and is being relocated to my current firehouse where Iím building the attached training center.

    Oh and I hope everyoneís doing well, havenít been around much

    Attachment 1733003Attachment 1733004Attachment 1733005Attachment 1733006Attachment 1733007

  5. #55
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    To answer your original question, no you would not be wrong.

  6. #56
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I haven't read everything here.

    I am rarely on site when steel frame is being erected. One time that I was, a steel frame had been built inside one of those huge warehouse buildings to divide the space into two stories. The second floor was to be concrete poured on corrugated steel. The whole frame was I beam posts & beams, with trusses placed on top. It was fully erected before the welder started.
    He used only 6010. He said this is not about tensile strength. 60,000 PSI tensile is WAY beyond the strength of the steel it joined. Gravity will hold it together, welds are only to keep things in place in extreme events, (tornado, earthquake, bomb). Welding steel brought from outdoors, he wanted deep penetration. He did no joint prep, only welded (mostly fillets) directly on the surface rusted steel. He felt 6010 gave him the best fusion, blasted through rust better, and its quick freeze quality made it easier to do out of position welds without sag.
    I can't believe they'd use 60xx on a building site. It's not seismic rated as far as I know, and it just isn't what I've seen used. Any good structural guy should be well versed in 7018, or seismic rated wire. I couldn't imagine any WP calling for 60xx on structural iron. I might be wrong......dunno.

  7. #57
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Hell, I dunno...........can't imagine anything but a lo-hy on any moment connections

  8. #58
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I found that a steep rod angle is part of the problem. No excessive angle or unnecessary high current. Just find the puddle as with any manual
    welding process. If it slag builds up whip out and come back, but straighten the rod. Specially, going vertical up your rod should be near horizontal.

    All 3/32" 6013 .The first is 16g /.5 tubing. Left run at 50 amps the other at 77 amps

    Next photo is same tube at 77amps vertical up. Moving fast. There are a couple burn throughs at the top that were filled as i welded.

    Next photo is 1/8 plate vertical up at 75 amps
    The large slag pocket at the top came because i jumped /sped up too much as the metal got hot and began to undercut.

    Last is 3/8 rod on 1/8 plate. I will be performing this tomorrow.

    Metal was not cleaned or grinded

    Good luck
    Attached Images Attached Images     
    Last edited by tapwelder; 11-08-2021 at 06:52 PM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Two more beads. The first is 75 amp vertical up covering the previous bead on the 1/8 plate plate was cold. The second is vertical up at 90 amps covering the previous bead, run on hot metal.

    Now, i will see if she act like she knows me tomorrow. Or will we continue on this path.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  10. #60
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    That aint nuthin a little paint wont fix.

  11. #61
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    1/8” is definitely too big of a rod for vertical up on 3/16
    I did it a few times, but I cheated and used pulse.
    1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig!



  12. #62
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I can't believe they'd use 60xx on a building site. It's not seismic rated as far as I know, and it just isn't what I've seen used. Any good structural guy should be well versed in 7018, or seismic rated wire. I couldn't imagine any WP calling for 60xx on structural iron. I might be wrong......dunno.
    i agree, if ur gonna do it, do it right, i cant believe some of the posts im reading. im all for the guy doing it, but what i cant get over is how, can a fire dept in new york put something like this up where firemean are climbing training , and it isnt done w/ certified welder, special inspection inspected, engineeerd etc. i just dont get it, how this works. were talkin home depot left over rods, use whatever you want rod, and do it, and let fireman climp the platform, jump w/ there ropes from it, or whatever they do. i mean, does a new can of xcalibur deserving in the budget of the NYFD budget. or is this kind of charity work im not familiar w/. 2nd thing, is how the hell, did it ever get away w/ the way it was, for as long as they did, in a place like new york.

  13. #63
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Here data on 7018 the down side see red print

    Dave

    From https://www.materialwelding.com/what...ing-procedure/

    Storage of Low Hydrogen Stick Electrodes

    Low hydrogen stick electrodes must be dry to perform properly. Unopened hermetically sealed containers provide excellent protection in good storage conditions. Opened cans should be stored in a cabinet at 250 to 300įF (120 to 150įC). Low hydrogen stick electrode coatings that have picked up moisture may result in hydrogen induced cracking, particularly in steels with a yield strength of 80,000 psi (550 MPa) and higher.

    Moisture resistant electrodes with an ďRĒ suffix in their AWS classification have a high resistance to moisture pickup coating and, if properly stored, will be less susceptible to this problem, regardless of the yield strength of the steel being welded. All low hydrogen stick electrodes should be stored properly, even those with an ďRĒ suffix. Standard EXX18 electrodes should be supplied to welders twice per shift. Moisture resistant types may be exposed for up to 9 hours.

    When containers are punctured or opened, low hydrogen electrodes may pick up moisture. Depending upon the amount of moisture, it will damage weld quality in the following ways:

    1. A greater amount of moisture in low hydrogen electrodes may cause porosity. Detection of this condition requires x-ray inspection or destructive testing. If the base metal or weld metal exceeds 80,000 psi (550 MPa) yield strength, this moisture may contribute to under-bead or weld cracking.

    2. A relatively high amount of moisture in low hydrogen electrodes causes visible external porosity in addition to internal porosity. It also may cause excessive slag fluidity, a rough weld surface, difficult slag removal, and cracking.

    3. Severe moisture pickup can cause weld cracks in addition to under-bead cracking, severe porosity, poor appearance, and slag problems.

    How many times baking of a low hydrogen electrode is allowed?



    This is the most common question that arises with many welding engineers/ QA-QC personnel. While the Codes and electrodes specifications are silent on this query, precautions must be taken care not to bake electrodes more than twice. The obvious reason is ĎEach baking sequence will remove the essential moisture required in the coating and additive substances which hold the coating strong on the core wire of the electrode. To be precise, any low hydrogen electrode should be discarded if excessive redrying causes the coating to become fragile and flake or break off while welding, or if there is a noticeable difference in handling or arc characteristics, such as insufficient arc force.

    Welding consumable storage and handled guidelines should be in accordance with the consumable manufacturerís instructions and guidelines and as given in the AWS A5.XX series of filler metal specifications. To reduce exposure to moisture, certain welding consumables should be stored in warm holding ovens after they have been removed from the manufacturerís packaging. Low-hydrogen SMAW electrodes supplied in non-hermetically sealed containers should be baked according to manufacturerís instructions prior to use.

    .

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  14. #64
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by 123weld View Post
    i agree, if ur gonna do it, do it right, i cant believe some of the posts im reading. im all for the guy doing it, but what i cant get over is how, can a fire dept in new york put something like this up where firemean are climbing training , and it isnt done w/ certified welder, special inspection inspected, engineeerd etc. i just dont get it, how this works. were talkin home depot left over rods, use whatever you want rod, and do it, and let fireman climp the platform, jump w/ there ropes from it, or whatever they do. i mean, does a new can of xcalibur deserving in the budget of the NYFD budget. or is this kind of charity work im not familiar w/. 2nd thing, is how the hell, did it ever get away w/ the way it was, for as long as they did, in a place like new york.
    It would be different if it had loaf vs just standing there 2 or 3 stories tall
    A blind man can see this is going to stand there. These guys climb ladders and buildings on fire. Its gonna have safety factor 100 times whats needed. Its not a sesmic building.

  15. #65
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    As for that thunderbolt I mentioned, it works, but itís gonna be an issue to get it 20 feet up so itís closer enough to where Iím working vs the lightweight mm200. Thing weighs absolutely nothing
    if me and a fat airconditioning guy and his helper could pull up my lincoln225 up the side of the 4 story walnut creek movie theature back in '03 w/ that skinny black and orange rope (before i had an inverter) , im sure u big strong fireman w/ all your gear, can handle the getting the thunderbolt up there

  16. #66
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    300 times stronger than the straight section of ladder they are going to climb to get there.

  17. #67
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Nothing's seismic until it's seismic.

    Structural guys are pretty anal about the filler they use..........or at least the inspectors are.

    I was watching a video by some guy here in Oklahoma. He was making a driveway entryway out of 8" pipe. Was doing the fitup, and said that it wasn't that critical because it was just structural The dood is mostly a pipeline dood, or was a pipeline dood........................do those guys think that structural is any less important that a piece of pipe?????

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by 123weld View Post
    if me and a fat airconditioning guy and his helper could pull up my lincoln225 up the side of the 4 story walnut creek movie theature back in '03 w/ that skinny black and orange rope (before i had an inverter) , im sure u big strong fireman w/ all your gear, can handle the getting the thunderbolt up there
    Thunderbolt will run long leads, so the doods won't have to haul it up the side of the thing Another blow in my eternal fight against inverter machines Those old transformer machines were bulletproof. Long leads...........just turn the amps upName:  tkqe4fh-smiley-two-thumbs-up175028_285604.gif
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Let me preface this by saying I donít stick weld often.

    I can do it, i know what a good sound weld looks like but Iím not being featured in any magazinesÖ

    That said, i have to cut this tower up, relocate it and put it back together.

    Iíd like to use 6013 because I just know Iíll make cleaner welds with it.

    So that said, am i taking a risk on strength using 6013 to get nicer welds or is it a non concern in the application?

    This tower is 6x6 3/16 wall tube. So itís going have a good 24Ē of weld on each section.

    Also, this thing is a death trap as it sits welding wise and has held up for 10+ years. No idea what hack did it the first time around. Itís got one weld on each pieceÖ

    This is a rope training tower and is being relocated to my current firehouse where Iím building the attached training center.

    Oh and I hope everyoneís doing well, havenít been around much

    Attachment 1733003Attachment 1733004Attachment 1733005Attachment 1733006Attachment 1733007
    I would go with 7016 for sure. I love that rod. A 3/32 rod in reverse polarity penetrates rather nicely. You just hold a short ARC and it does the work it does not run or drip.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  21. Likes SweetMK liked this post
  22. #70
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quoating Dave's post.
    particularly in steels with a yield strength of 80,000 psi (550 MPa) and higher.
    This is the important part most time what is being welded is steel with a strength far less than 80,000 psi.
    There is a lot of welding done with 7018 that has sat around in open boxes.

  23. #71
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I agree
    Most steel is A36 any rod or wire stronger than 36,000 psi.
    E7018 Sitting in open box make the weld brittle.

    My point is 6013 could better than 7018 if not correctly handled

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by bcguide View Post
    Quoating Dave's post.
    particularly in steels with a yield strength of 80,000 psi (550 MPa) and higher.
    This is the important part most time what is being welded is steel with a strength far less than 80,000 psi.
    There is a lot of welding done with 7018 that has sat around in open boxes.

  24. #72
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by bcguide View Post
    Quoating Dave's post.
    particularly in steels with a yield strength of 80,000 psi (550 MPa) and higher.
    This is the important part most time what is being welded is steel with a strength far less than 80,000 psi.
    There is a lot of welding done with 7018 that has sat around in open boxes.
    Yeah, not very critical with plain mild steels under 50,000 psi.

  25. #73
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Two more. 6013. Flat position at 90amps. 1/8 plate, and one downhill 90 amps.

    Rod near 90 degrees or parallel on down hill.
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  26. #74
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Contrary to some opinion not all structural is critical, same for pressure pipe. Big difference between a cold water irrigation line and a steam pipe. Difference in this 20 ft platform and a hi rise in seismic location. A lot would be amazed how many hi rise sign poles gobbed on with 6013 by part time welders cant weld half that good uphill. Does it really matter which DC machine he uses?

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  28. #75
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    if me and a fat airconditioning guy and his helper could pull up my lincoln225 up the side of the 4 story walnut creek movie theature back in '03 w/ tha
    This sounds professional.

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