There nothing wrong with either 7018 or 6013.
Most steel is A36 which is 36ksi and the welding rod is 60ksi or 70ksi.
Could go in to more detail but not need for welding.

Dave

Let me preface this by saying I don’t stick weld often.

I can do it, i know what a good sound weld looks like but I’m not being featured in any magazines…

That said, i have to cut this tower up, relocate it and put it back together.

I’d like to use 6013 because I just know I’ll make cleaner welds with it.

So that said, am i taking a risk on strength using 6013 to get nicer welds or is it a non concern in the application?

This tower is 6x6 3/16 wall tube. So it’s going have a good 24” of weld on each section.

Also, this thing is a death trap as it sits welding wise and has held up for 10+ years. No idea what hack did it the first time around. It’s got one weld on each piece…

This is a rope training tower and is being relocated to my current firehouse where I’m building the attached training center.

Oh and I hope everyone’s doing well, haven’t been around much

View attachment 1733003 View attachment 1733004 View attachment 1733005 View attachment 1733006 View attachment 1733007

 

I would use 7018. Even if it wasn't the electrode I use for almost everything, I would use it there mainly because there are safety issues involved. It's much easier to produce a defect free weld deposit with 7018 than 6013. With the fairly large amount of welding required a self shielded flux core would be another good option.

 

What welding machine are you using? AC buzz box or a machine (transformer/buzz box/tombstone or inverter) that does DC also?

If it were me, I would run Lincoln Jet-LH 78 MR-RSP rods, 7018 in a green label box. Run them DC+. With some amps behind them they run excellent and aren't hard. Of course, amps depend on rod size, 1/8" is probably what you want to use - its the most common size and would work fine for the parts you're working with. Do some test beads to dial in your heat.

You can weave 7018 up to about 2-3x the rod diameter if you need a wider bead, otherwise you can run them as a simple drag rod. Weaving across your joint will allow you to focus the arc on each side of the joint so as to get better fusion if you have much of a gap.

On a side note, these Jet rods are labeled as being "AC" rods. I would not run them on AC.

There is another version of Lincoln's 7018 that you can get at Home Depot in the cellophane-wrapped boxes that also comes in the plastic boxes that you'll find at a more proper LWS (local welding supply) that come in a blue label package. These are Lincoln 7018-AC RSP. They are sold at places like Home Depot as I suspect that is their more common "AC version" 7018. I have never had any luck with them - I've always had porosity on starts. After the first 1/2-3/4" they can smooth out, but the initial porosity bugs the heck out of me. When I switched to the Jet's it was a night and day difference. If you are leery of them - get you a box of them (Jets - green label) to have on-hand and burn a couple to try. I bet you'll like them.

As to 6013 vs 7018 - personally I don't weld anything with 6013 that I care about. The only 6013 I have around is 3/32" that I have on-hand just to use for sheet metal. However, for thinner stuff that isn't load bearing I have gravitated towards Blue Demon 5/64" 7014. I can get good bead appearance with it. 7018 is a much more structural rod. For anything being subjected to much dynamic loading - it would be the 1st rod I would go to, with the caveat that if I needed a fast-freeze root that would easily join parts together (think rusted metal, painted, etc) I would go to 6010 or 6011 first, get everything cleaned well with a wire wheel on an angle grinder, then lay some 7018. Otherwise, good clean base metal you can run straight 7018.

I just stocked up on 3/16" 7018. I did a project a couple months ago and burned through most of a box of it. Actually, I stock 3/32", 1/8", and 5/32" in 6010, 6011, and 7018 as those are my go-to rods (I do have some other rods, but don't burn them). The 3/16" 7018 burns nice and will work for the vast majority of what I'll weld here - with lighter power levels. Aside from that, if I need something heavier I have enough to make a few out-of-the-blue welds, but if I was working on a project like yours I'd get a couple boxes specifically of the spec rod I was going to use on it.

Just a note on the "tower" - those vertical sections are all 1-piece, once you cut the top framing off. Hopefully you can leave the feet attached and grind off/drill out the bolts. With as stout as that tubing is (6" square, 3/16" wall is pretty darn stout) - there isn't too much risk of the tubes giving way - so long as they are not rusted through anywhere. I would check that as you take it apart. The main structural challenge I can see is that assembly "racking" - where the top framing may allow it to tilt then fall like a domino set. To that exact point - that is what scares me about the single side welds that were on there before. I realize it was up for a long time, but as you reassemble it I would box those frame members off. It would make the set up more rigid.

Good luck with it!

 

View attachment 1733005

For what it is worth - that joint looks like a fillet made with 6010 rod run with whip-and-pause technique.

 

If you are looking for similar tensile strength but an easier rod to work with, I would suggest 7014. That being said, while 6013 may be the most hated rod on this site, I've fixed plenty of farm equipment and hog pens with it where getting clean metal was an issue.

 

Either 6013 or 7014 will work perfectly. Like Whitbaron when I had only an AC welder All my machinery
on the farm was repaired with these two rods Although I now have an inverter welder that welds very smooth with 7018 7014 is still my favourite Rod to use

I've climbed a lot of towers and structures the past ~11 years - grain handling facilities, radio towers, etc.

If what I was climbing was welded with 7014 or 6013 I wouldn't climb it.

There are countless examples of where people have welded incredible things with those two rods. I've heard of 6013 being the only rod some farmers use. I just wouldn't trust those for structural things where a failure could cause injuries or property damage, personally.

I'd suggest for the OP, if they have a DC capable stick machine, to at least get a box of Jet 7018 to try. If you can weld any rod at all I'd think it would only take a few rods of this stuff to both get a technique down that would produce good results with a good heat setting. The rods will run themselves - literally. If you start the arc and lay the stinger down with the rod along the joint it will run like a sparkler and lay a nice straight bead. That isn't what I would do for a big structural weld, but give it a try some time when practicing.

 

Either 6013 or 7014 will work perfectly. Like Whitbaron when I had only an AC welder All my machinery
on the farm was repaired with these two rods Although I now have an inverter welder that welds very smooth with 7018 7014 is still my favourite Rod to use

 

Its not a critical weld, and its not structural in the same sense as I beams in a building. You aren't making a trailer or welding nuclear power plant piping. You aren't subjecting it to forces that require a charpy v-notch rating, etc. Use whatever process you feel comfortable with (MIG, FCAW, Stick, etc.). If you use stick, virtually any electrode is sufficient. My only caveat is if you have to cut across those vertical 6x6 legs, I would use fish plates when you stick it back together.

 

I agree

Most building fabricators in 1960's used E6013.
I did not must use of E7018 until the late 1970's
To use E7018 is a pain 😫 to use the rod correctly in needs to heat to 250°F before you start to weld hot hot hot.

Dave

 

7018 is the stuff. once u can run that in all pos., there isnt much u cant weld. nows ur chance to get some good practice/experience, once its over, u'll be glad u pushed urself.
a couple+ of us will be dissapointed if we dont see finished pics of 7018

 

You call them a hack and say you don't stick weld, but you want to stick weld? Perhap, practice a lot before doing it or use flux core. By practice mean climb a ladder and weld over head or weld at a low level where kneeling is too high sitting is too low... Practice in position required on that project.

Interesting statement about 6013 vs 7018. I was welding 6013 yesterday.
I was thinking, We have addictive relationship. I like it but it eventually lets me down(pilot error or not?) it goes from beautiful to where the heck is the puddle. It is my go to rod because of low heat input for the thin material I weld. I can run 6013 consistently very well standing at my bench in my shop.


Good luck

 

Thanks for the input

It’s gonna be welded with a Miller multimatic 200.

We have an old thunderbolt 225 here also but i don’t see myself carrying it around…

 

If you have a mig machine, why don’t you use self shielded flux core?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I haven't read everything here.

I am rarely on site when steel frame is being erected. One time that I was, a steel frame had been built inside one of those huge warehouse buildings to divide the space into two stories. The second floor was to be concrete poured on corrugated steel. The whole frame was I beam posts & beams, with trusses placed on top. It was fully erected before the welder started.
He used only 6010. He said this is not about tensile strength. 60,000 PSI tensile is WAY beyond the strength of the steel it joined. Gravity will hold it together, welds are only to keep things in place in extreme events, (tornado, earthquake, bomb). Welding steel brought from outdoors, he wanted deep penetration. He did no joint prep, only welded (mostly fillets) directly on the surface rusted steel. He felt 6010 gave him the best fusion, blasted through rust better, and its quick freeze quality made it easier to do out of position welds without sag.

 

I can't believe they'd use 60xx on a building site. It's not seismic rated as far as I know, and it just isn't what I've seen used. Any good structural guy should be well versed in 7018, or seismic rated wire. I couldn't imagine any WP calling for 60xx on structural iron. I might be wrong......dunno.

 

I also agree this is not true structural work for this conversation. Weld it up easiest way for you.

 

Both E6013 and E7018 are rated for structural work.
If the weld is going to X-ray it best to use E7018 like most pipeline's.

Dave

 

If you have a DC inverter welder. Just go ahead and use 7018. They weld just as smooth and easily
as 6013 and they don't cost any more. I got two 10lb boxes of 1/8" US Forge 1718 from Amazon Canada.
$27 Canadian each box And free shipping. They run just like 7014.

 

They're up to $40 Cdn/10 lb box, but still not a bad deal if they are good rods.
https://www.amazon.ca/US-Forge-Electrode-10-Pound-No-51834/dp/B0000DD6IA

 

Its something everyone should see
The pipe hangers and brackets alone are worth seeing. are

 

6013 is not a bad rod if you take a couple of extra steps. You really need to run it at the high end of its range to give the arc enough force to push the slag back. You also need to run a bit more rod angle for the same reason. If you do this, it works fine in my experience. I have never had porosity with it like you frequently hear people complaining about. 7014 is probably a tad easier to run but it takes many more amps for the same size rod. But 7014 is a true "drag rod". You can just shove it against the metal and keep it there, no need to worry about arc length so long as you keep the flux in contact with the metal being welded.

 

I have no porosity issues I can see when I make a bead. Half of this will be vertical up as well, as far as drag angle goes.

My 7018 start porosity issues I’ve posted in the past were resolved by using clean shiny metal instead of raw stuff. I’m also using the blue label Lincoln trash from Home Depot everyone said is horrible. This stuff is also labeled 7018AC and I’m using it on DC like an idiot, but it seems to weld fine?

 

While on the subject, can I extend the leads on the DC inverter? Do I just buy the DINS connectors of proper size and extension wire?

The connectors on these inverter machines are pretty tiny

 

Certainly, as long as practical

 

The leads are usually sized in accordance to the duty cycle. Just up the size and you shouldn't have any problems. Done it myself.

 

I inverter is small enough carry it. Use an extension cord.

 

13 is not low current. Its mild penetration and similar to 18 in current. I like 6011 for sheet, if I can 1/8. Low current and fast freeze.

 

Needs to be bigger if its longer especially if its running toward the top of the dial.

 

A couple thoughts -

- You're likely going to be on the upper end of the power that your Multimatic 200 is going to be able to run with 1/8" 7018 (the Jets I mentioned look like they are 110-160a https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/Products/jetlh78mrrsp_smaw). Your machine is spec'd (if I am looking at the correct specs - current Multimatic 200 on Millers' site) as being able to run 150 amps at 30% duty cycle on 240v in stick-mode. Your 1/8" 7018 rods are likely going to take every bit of that current. That means you are going to be welding pretty slow - you'll need to pause between rods for a bit.

- Adding length to the cables can be done, however it is going to affect your welding performance. The larger gauge cables you can get the better. If you try to run a lot of current through small cables you will loose a lot of voltage at the arc. This gets to my next point -

- With a 50ft 6 gauge extension cord I would recommend you check the input voltage - under load - at the end of the extension cord where the machine plugs in to. I've fought with voltage issues in the past. They can be bears to tackle. So keep this in mind - you could be taxing the circuit more than you are aware of going in to this. I would check voltage prior to much test welding - that way if it is tanking too far you aren't going to make the machine too unhappy (or possibly cause damage to it).

- As to the amperage you found being less than your other machine - that is very common. The amperage adjustment on machines makes it to where you can dial in welding performance to that machine. Always take the number with a grain of salt and never jump on a machine you've never run before expecting the same results as another - because chances are you aren't going to get the same results. In other words - the amperage is only a loose measurement of heat input. Arc voltage and amperage gives you the wattage. If your arc voltage on one machine is 10v higher, or 10v lower, that makes a noticeable difference in the amperage.

- You mention you have access to a Thunderbolt. If that machine is DC-capable, believe it or not, I would think about wheeling that thing over to where you're welding. For that project and of the two machines that would be my preference. You can't kill those old transformer machines easily and they will keep on trucking under load - totally contrary to the operational theory of your Multimatic 200 inverter. That is why I have an old transformer here - Lincoln Idealarc 250. If I was welding other than a small project or light repair the Idealarc is what I would prefer - no worry in the world on overloading it at currents higher than any rod I have can go and I don't have any 3/16"+ rods to get up towards the upper end of the current (300a-ish).

- Another note with the power circuit and transformer welder - your transformer welder won't care too much about the voltage. It will most certainly affect arc performance, but you won't hurt the machine. The same may not be the case with the Multimatic 200.

Good luck with it!

 

150 amps at 30% duty cycle on 240v in stick-mode. Your 1/8" 7018 rods are likely going to take every bit of that current

Huh??!! I run 1/8th 7018 at 125 amps almost exclusively unless I am going uphill in which case I use less amps. You shouldn't need 150 amps for a 1/8th inch rod.

If you try to run a lot of current through small cables you will loose a lot of voltage at the arc.

It really depends on how much length you are adding. If he adds 25 feet, its not going to change much.

With a 50ft 6 gauge extension cord I would recommend you check the input voltage - under load - at the end of the extension cord where the machine plugs in to.

The MM200 owners manual specifies 14 gauge conductors for the 240V electrical service with a 25 amp breaker. He is going to be fine with a 6 gauge extension cord. In fact it is overkill. He will have no problems with voltage loss due to the extension cord.

 

Huh??!! I run 1/8th 7018 at 125 amps almost exclusively unless I am going uphill in which case I use less amps. You shouldn't need 150 amps for a 1/8th inch rod.



It really depends on how much length you are adding. If he adds 25 feet, its not going to change much.



The MM200 owners manual specifies 14 gauge conductors for the 240V electrical service with a 25 amp breaker. He is going to be fine with a 6 gauge extension cord. In fact it is overkill. He will have no problems with voltage loss due to the extension cord.

Ya sense a bit of overthinking here in this thread? I've built plenty of pipe racks to go from building to building from 4x4x3/16" square tube and we always just did hot downhills with 6010. The cross tubes had a lot more load than this tower thing.

 

i ordered some 7018 in 3/32 and have 1/8 on hand. Forney brand from Amazon.

For $15, I’ll use this for all the practice opportunity I can get out of it.

As for that thunderbolt I mentioned, it works, but it’s gonna be an issue to get it 20 feet up so it’s closer enough to where I’m working vs the lightweight mm200. Thing weighs absolutely nothing

As for extending the leads, i was also talking like 10 feet not 100.

 

As for that thunderbolt I mentioned, it works, but it’s gonna be an issue to get it 20 feet up so it’s closer enough to where I’m working vs the lightweight mm200. Thing weighs absolutely nothing

if me and a fat airconditioning guy and his helper could pull up my lincoln225 up the side of the 4 story walnut creek movie theature back in '03 w/ that skinny black and orange rope (before i had an inverter) , im sure u big strong fireman w/ all your gear, can handle the getting the thunderbolt up there

 

I have 25 feet stinger, about 40 total leads, on my htp in the shop, it works because the machine is stationary. My esab 160 has stock. I carry it on my shoulder or park it near or hang it from my ladder.

Probably no issue with 10 extra, buy copper is heavy and must be stored.

 

Dont have to extend both, I have 25 ft 4 for my little one and makes it easy to hop around doing building. Even though the whole thing is portable and nice to have the local control it is hard to get away from simply dragging the stinger. The machine is light but have 3 cords to move to put a tack on the other end.

 

The stock stinger is like 10 feet at best on the Mm200 and my 210Mp. It’s basically nothing if you’re not next to a workbench.

Side note, appears I’m a total butcher doing vertical up stick welds. Who knew it was that much harder lol.

1/8” is definitely too big of a rod for vertical up on 3/16 if i lowered the amps the rod barely stays burning if I raise it the plate just turns to mush.

Guess i need to make some coupons…