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Thread: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

  1. #1
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    Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Let me preface this by saying I donít stick weld often.

    I can do it, i know what a good sound weld looks like but Iím not being featured in any magazinesÖ

    That said, i have to cut this tower up, relocate it and put it back together.

    Iíd like to use 6013 because I just know Iíll make cleaner welds with it.

    So that said, am i taking a risk on strength using 6013 to get nicer welds or is it a non concern in the application?

    This tower is 6x6 3/16 wall tube. So itís going have a good 24Ē of weld on each section.

    Also, this thing is a death trap as it sits welding wise and has held up for 10+ years. No idea what hack did it the first time around. Itís got one weld on each pieceÖ

    This is a rope training tower and is being relocated to my current firehouse where Iím building the attached training center.

    Oh and I hope everyoneís doing well, havenít been around much

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    There nothing wrong with either 7018 or 6013.
    Most steel is A36 which is 36ksi and the welding rod is 60ksi or 70ksi.
    Could go in to more detail but not need for welding.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    Let me preface this by saying I donít stick weld often.

    I can do it, i know what a good sound weld looks like but Iím not being featured in any magazinesÖ

    That said, i have to cut this tower up, relocate it and put it back together.

    Iíd like to use 6013 because I just know Iíll make cleaner welds with it.

    So that said, am i taking a risk on strength using 6013 to get nicer welds or is it a non concern in the application?

    This tower is 6x6 3/16 wall tube. So itís going have a good 24Ē of weld on each section.

    Also, this thing is a death trap as it sits welding wise and has held up for 10+ years. No idea what hack did it the first time around. Itís got one weld on each pieceÖ

    This is a rope training tower and is being relocated to my current firehouse where Iím building the attached training center.

    Oh and I hope everyoneís doing well, havenít been around much

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I would use 7018. Even if it wasn't the electrode I use for almost everything, I would use it there mainly because there are safety issues involved. It's much easier to produce a defect free weld deposit with 7018 than 6013. With the fairly large amount of welding required a self shielded flux core would be another good option.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    What welding machine are you using? AC buzz box or a machine (transformer/buzz box/tombstone or inverter) that does DC also?

    If it were me, I would run Lincoln Jet-LH 78 MR-RSP rods, 7018 in a green label box. Run them DC+. With some amps behind them they run excellent and aren't hard. Of course, amps depend on rod size, 1/8" is probably what you want to use - its the most common size and would work fine for the parts you're working with. Do some test beads to dial in your heat.

    You can weave 7018 up to about 2-3x the rod diameter if you need a wider bead, otherwise you can run them as a simple drag rod. Weaving across your joint will allow you to focus the arc on each side of the joint so as to get better fusion if you have much of a gap.

    On a side note, these Jet rods are labeled as being "AC" rods. I would not run them on AC.

    There is another version of Lincoln's 7018 that you can get at Home Depot in the cellophane-wrapped boxes that also comes in the plastic boxes that you'll find at a more proper LWS (local welding supply) that come in a blue label package. These are Lincoln 7018-AC RSP. They are sold at places like Home Depot as I suspect that is their more common "AC version" 7018. I have never had any luck with them - I've always had porosity on starts. After the first 1/2-3/4" they can smooth out, but the initial porosity bugs the heck out of me. When I switched to the Jet's it was a night and day difference. If you are leery of them - get you a box of them (Jets - green label) to have on-hand and burn a couple to try. I bet you'll like them.

    As to 6013 vs 7018 - personally I don't weld anything with 6013 that I care about. The only 6013 I have around is 3/32" that I have on-hand just to use for sheet metal. However, for thinner stuff that isn't load bearing I have gravitated towards Blue Demon 5/64" 7014. I can get good bead appearance with it. 7018 is a much more structural rod. For anything being subjected to much dynamic loading - it would be the 1st rod I would go to, with the caveat that if I needed a fast-freeze root that would easily join parts together (think rusted metal, painted, etc) I would go to 6010 or 6011 first, get everything cleaned well with a wire wheel on an angle grinder, then lay some 7018. Otherwise, good clean base metal you can run straight 7018.

    I just stocked up on 3/16" 7018. I did a project a couple months ago and burned through most of a box of it. Actually, I stock 3/32", 1/8", and 5/32" in 6010, 6011, and 7018 as those are my go-to rods (I do have some other rods, but don't burn them). The 3/16" 7018 burns nice and will work for the vast majority of what I'll weld here - with lighter power levels. Aside from that, if I need something heavier I have enough to make a few out-of-the-blue welds, but if I was working on a project like yours I'd get a couple boxes specifically of the spec rod I was going to use on it.

    Just a note on the "tower" - those vertical sections are all 1-piece, once you cut the top framing off. Hopefully you can leave the feet attached and grind off/drill out the bolts. With as stout as that tubing is (6" square, 3/16" wall is pretty darn stout) - there isn't too much risk of the tubes giving way - so long as they are not rusted through anywhere. I would check that as you take it apart. The main structural challenge I can see is that assembly "racking" - where the top framing may allow it to tilt then fall like a domino set. To that exact point - that is what scares me about the single side welds that were on there before. I realize it was up for a long time, but as you reassemble it I would box those frame members off. It would make the set up more rigid.

    Good luck with it!
    Last edited by FlyFishn; 11-06-2021 at 06:23 PM.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
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    For what it is worth - that joint looks like a fillet made with 6010 rod run with whip-and-pause technique.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    If you are looking for similar tensile strength but an easier rod to work with, I would suggest 7014. That being said, while 6013 may be the most hated rod on this site, I've fixed plenty of farm equipment and hog pens with it where getting clean metal was an issue.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Either 6013 or 7014 will work perfectly. Like Whitbaron when I had only an AC welder All my machinery
    on the farm was repaired with these two rods Although I now have an inverter welder that welds very smooth with 7018 7014 is still my favourite Rod to use

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    If you are looking for similar tensile strength but an easier rod to work with, I would suggest 7014. That being said, while 6013 may be the most hated rod on this site, I've fixed plenty of farm equipment and hog pens with it where getting clean metal was an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    Either 6013 or 7014 will work perfectly. Like Whitbaron when I had only an AC welder All my machinery
    on the farm was repaired with these two rods Although I now have an inverter welder that welds very smooth with 7018 7014 is still my favourite Rod to use
    I've climbed a lot of towers and structures the past ~11 years - grain handling facilities, radio towers, etc.

    If what I was climbing was welded with 7014 or 6013 I wouldn't climb it.

    There are countless examples of where people have welded incredible things with those two rods. I've heard of 6013 being the only rod some farmers use. I just wouldn't trust those for structural things where a failure could cause injuries or property damage, personally.

    I'd suggest for the OP, if they have a DC capable stick machine, to at least get a box of Jet 7018 to try. If you can weld any rod at all I'd think it would only take a few rods of this stuff to both get a technique down that would produce good results with a good heat setting. The rods will run themselves - literally. If you start the arc and lay the stinger down with the rod along the joint it will run like a sparkler and lay a nice straight bead. That isn't what I would do for a big structural weld, but give it a try some time when practicing.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Its not a critical weld, and its not structural in the same sense as I beams in a building. You aren't making a trailer or welding nuclear power plant piping. You aren't subjecting it to forces that require a charpy v-notch rating, etc. Use whatever process you feel comfortable with (MIG, FCAW, Stick, etc.). If you use stick, virtually any electrode is sufficient. My only caveat is if you have to cut across those vertical 6x6 legs, I would use fish plates when you stick it back together.
    Last edited by Louie1961; 11-06-2021 at 08:34 PM.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    7018 is the stuff. once u can run that in all pos., there isnt much u cant weld. nows ur chance to get some good practice/experience, once its over, u'll be glad u pushed urself.
    a couple+ of us will be dissapointed if we dont see finished pics of 7018

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I agree

    Most building fabricators in 1960's used E6013.
    I did not must use of E7018 until the late 1970's
    To use E7018 is a pain 😫 to use the rod correctly in needs to heat to 250įF before you start to weld hot hot hot.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Its not a critical weld, and its not structural in the same sense as I beams in a building. You aren't making a trailer or welding nuclear power plant piping. You aren't subjecting it to forces that require a charpy v-notch rating, etc. Use whatever process you feel comfortable with (MIG, FCAW, Stick, etc.). If you use stick, virtually any electrode is sufficient. My only caveat is if you have to cut across those vertical 6x6 legs, I would use fish plates when you stick it back together.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    You call them a hack and say you don't stick weld, but you want to stick weld? Perhap, practice a lot before doing it or use flux core. By practice mean climb a ladder and weld over head or weld at a low level where kneeling is too high sitting is too low... Practice in position required on that project.

    Interesting statement about 6013 vs 7018. I was welding 6013 yesterday.
    I was thinking, We have addictive relationship. I like it but it eventually lets me down(pilot error or not?) it goes from beautiful to where the heck is the puddle. It is my go to rod because of low heat input for the thin material I weld. I can run 6013 consistently very well standing at my bench in my shop.


    Good luck

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Thanks for the input

    It’s gonna be welded with a Miller multimatic 200.

    We have an old thunderbolt 225 here also but i don’t see myself carrying it around…
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    I agree

    Most building fabricators in 1960's used E6013.
    I did not must use of E7018 until the late 1970's
    To use E7018 is a pain �� to use the rod correctly in needs to heat to 250įF before you start to weld hot hot hot.

    Dave
    There was a thread on here somewhere from a gent in the UK, Allan was his name I don't remember his user name. But he was doing some really nice pressure piping work with 6013. Actually very impressive work with 6013.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    It is great rod to use. E6013 was widely used in the 1960's. The other rod that was used was E7024 it was fast.

    E7018 was used mostly for pipeline work and not used mush on metal buildings.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    There was a thread on here somewhere from a gent in the UK, Allan was his name I don't remember his user name. But he was doing some really nice pressure piping work with 6013. Actually very impressive work with 6013.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    There was a thread on here somewhere from a gent in the UK, Allan was his name I don't remember his user name. But he was doing some really nice pressure piping work with 6013. Actually very impressive work with 6013.


    I was also very impressed with his work. If I recall though, it seemed like the general conclusion was that the "flavor" of 6013 he was using was different than what is readily available here in the states.
    But I am with those who recommend using 7018. And since the structure is mild steel, at least that's what I would have used, there is no real reason that the 7018 has to be kept at temperature. Or in a rod oven. I find it interesting that people's view of the 7018 electrode is that it somehow is more difficult to run than 6013. I would even use 6010/11 before I would use 6013.
    And for projects like you are wanting to do, I would try the Washington Alloy brand if it is available to you. It strikes and restrikes quite well. My LWS has been carrying it for a number of years, and while an offshore product it works well.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I work with both including overhead welding.
    The biggest reason to use E7018 is if the weld is being x-ray.
    E6013 does not x-ray as good as E7018.

    Please read the data sheets on X-rays welds and what need to do for welding.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by villageblacksmith View Post


    I was also very impressed with his work. If I recall though, it seemed like the general conclusion was that the "flavor" of 6013 he was using was different than what is readily available here in the states.
    But I am with those who recommend using 7018. And since the structure is mild steel, at least that's what I would have used, there is no real reason that the 7018 has to be kept at temperature. Or in a rod oven. I find it interesting that people's view of the 7018 electrode is that it somehow is more difficult to run than 6013. I would even use 6010/11 before I would use 6013.
    And for projects like you are wanting to do, I would try the Washington Alloy brand if it is available to you. It strikes and restrikes quite well. My LWS has been carrying it for a number of years, and while an offshore product it works well.

    Sent from my E6810 using http://tiny.cc/Forums_reader

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I haven't read everything here.

    I am rarely on site when steel frame is being erected. One time that I was, a steel frame had been built inside one of those huge warehouse buildings to divide the space into two stories. The second floor was to be concrete poured on corrugated steel. The whole frame was I beam posts & beams, with trusses placed on top. It was fully erected before the welder started.
    He used only 6010. He said this is not about tensile strength. 60,000 PSI tensile is WAY beyond the strength of the steel it joined. Gravity will hold it together, welds are only to keep things in place in extreme events, (tornado, earthquake, bomb). Welding steel brought from outdoors, he wanted deep penetration. He did no joint prep, only welded (mostly fillets) directly on the surface rusted steel. He felt 6010 gave him the best fusion, blasted through rust better, and its quick freeze quality made it easier to do out of position welds without sag.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    I also agree this is not true structural work for this conversation. Weld it up easiest way for you.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Both E6013 and E7018 are rated for structural work.
    If the weld is going to X-ray it best to use E7018 like most pipeline's.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    I also agree this is not true structural work for this conversation. Weld it up easiest way for you.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    If you have a DC inverter welder. Just go ahead and use 7018. They weld just as smooth and easily
    as 6013 and they don't cost any more. I got two 10lb boxes of 1/8" US Forge 1718 from Amazon Canada.
    $27 Canadian each box And free shipping. They run just like 7014.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Its not a critical weld, and its not structural in the same sense as I beams in a building. You aren't making a trailer or welding nuclear power plant piping. You aren't subjecting it to forces that require a charpy v-notch rating, etc. Use whatever process you feel comfortable with (MIG, FCAW, Stick, etc.). If you use stick, virtually any electrode is sufficient. My only caveat is if you have to cut across those vertical 6x6 legs, I would use fish plates when you stick it back together.
    I agree. Its got to hold its own weight and is small and light. Fwiw, ona nuke the quality is treated the same for structural as piping for the most part. Very stringent inspection.

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Its something everyone should see
    The pipe hangers and brackets alone are worth seeing. are

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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    If you have a DC inverter welder. Just go ahead and use 7018. They weld just as smooth and easily
    as 6013 and they don't cost any more. I got two 10lb boxes of 1/8" US Forge 1718 from Amazon Canada.
    $27 Canadian each box And free shipping. They run just like 7014.
    They're up to $40 Cdn/10 lb box, but still not a bad deal if they are good rods.
    https://www.amazon.ca/US-Forge-Elect.../dp/B0000DD6IA
    Last edited by whtbaron; 11-07-2021 at 01:34 PM.
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    Re: Would I be wrong to use 6013 over 7018 on this?

    6013 is not a bad rod if you take a couple of extra steps. You really need to run it at the high end of its range to give the arc enough force to push the slag back. You also need to run a bit more rod angle for the same reason. If you do this, it works fine in my experience. I have never had porosity with it like you frequently hear people complaining about. 7014 is probably a tad easier to run but it takes many more amps for the same size rod. But 7014 is a true "drag rod". You can just shove it against the metal and keep it there, no need to worry about arc length so long as you keep the flux in contact with the metal being welded.
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