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Thread: E7018 the right way and why

  1. #1
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    E7018 the right way and why

    This is data sheet on using Low Hydrogen rod and why you need to per heat the rod

    Dave


    From https://www.materialwelding.com/what...ing-procedure/

    Storage of Low Hydrogen Stick Electrodes

    Low hydrogen stick electrodes must be dry to perform properly. Unopened hermetically sealed containers provide excellent protection in good storage conditions. Opened cans should be stored in a cabinet at 250 to 300°F (120 to 150°C). Low hydrogen stick electrode coatings that have picked up moisture may result in hydrogen induced cracking, particularly in steels with a yield strength of 80,000 psi (550 MPa) and higher.

    Moisture resistant electrodes with an “R” suffix in their AWS classification have a high resistance to moisture pickup coating and, if properly stored, will be less susceptible to this problem, regardless of the yield strength of the steel being welded. All low hydrogen stick electrodes should be stored properly, even those with an “R” suffix. Standard EXX18 electrodes should be supplied to welders twice per shift. Moisture resistant types may be exposed for up to 9 hours.

    When containers are punctured or opened, low hydrogen electrodes may pick up moisture. Depending upon the amount of moisture, it will damage weld quality in the following ways:

    1. A greater amount of moisture in low hydrogen electrodes may cause porosity. Detection of this condition requires x-ray inspection or destructive testing. If the base metal or weld metal exceeds 80,000 psi (550 MPa) yield strength, this moisture may contribute to under-bead or weld cracking.

    2. A relatively high amount of moisture in low hydrogen electrodes causes visible external porosity in addition to internal porosity. It also may cause excessive slag fluidity, a rough weld surface, difficult slag removal, and cracking.

    3. Severe moisture pickup can cause weld cracks in addition to under-bead cracking, severe porosity, poor appearance, and slag problems.

    How many times baking of a low hydrogen electrode is allowed?



    This is the most common question that arises with many welding engineers/ QA-QC personnel. While the Codes and electrodes specifications are silent on this query, precautions must be taken care not to bake electrodes more than twice. The obvious reason is ‘Each baking sequence will remove the essential moisture required in the coating and additive substances which hold the coating strong on the core wire of the electrode. To be precise, any low hydrogen electrode should be discarded if excessive redrying causes the coating to become fragile and flake or break off while welding, or if there is a noticeable difference in handling or arc characteristics, such as insufficient arc force.

    Welding consumable storage and handled guidelines should be in accordance with the consumable manufacturer’s instructions and guidelines and as given in the AWS A5.XX series of filler metal specifications. To reduce exposure to moisture, certain welding consumables should be stored in warm holding ovens after they have been removed from the manufacturer’s packaging. Low-hydrogen SMAW electrodes supplied in non-hermetically sealed containers should be baked according to manufacturer’s instructions prior to use
    Last edited by smithdoor; 11-08-2021 at 10:05 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Doesn't apply to every scenario where one uses E7018 though.
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Why use E7018 if do not dry the rod out.
    Low Hydrogen rod is very critical on using it dry.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Doesn't apply to every scenario where one uses E7018 though.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Why use E7018 if do not dry the rod out.
    Low Hydrogen rod is very critical on using it dry.

    Dave
    So, all the farm equipment pulled by 450-500 horsepower tractors I have repaired over the last 20 years is just going to fall apart because I used 7018 straight out of the box??

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Give it a rest already.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    No it is not going fall apart.

    I probably work just find for most welding jobs.
    Now if you doing construction type welding you would follow the AWS specifications. This is a butt cover too.
    If the building goes down the very first they look at the welds.

    Each time there earthquake in California there look welds and change codes. The North Ridge earthquake the code changed to all welds must be done by certified welders. Lots of bad welds

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    So, all the farm equipment pulled by 450-500 horsepower tractors I have repaired over the last 20 years is just going to fall apart because I used 7018 straight out of the box??

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Today I would only use flux core wire E71T-11.
    Makes life simpler and a lot faster welding.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    So, all the farm equipment pulled by 450-500 horsepower tractors I have repaired over the last 20 years is just going to fall apart because I used 7018 straight out of the box??

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    I probably work just find for most welding jobs.
    What we already knew.

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Now if you doing construction type welding you would follow the AWS specifications.
    What those that are qualified to do construction type welding already know.

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Today I would only use flux core wire E71T-11.
    We know. You mention it every single time you reply to a thread. Every. Time.
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Yes

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    What we already knew.



    What those that are qualified to do construction type welding already know.



    We know. You mention it every single time you reply to a thread. Every. Time.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    So, let's see....if you're doing code work you already know you have to follow certain procedures, so this is a wasted post. If you're not doing code work, it isn't going to matter, so this is a wasted post. If you're an English teacher you've probably already had a heart attack and are being tended to by EMS.
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    So, all the farm equipment pulled by 450-500 horsepower tractors I have repaired over the last 20 years is just going to fall apart because I used 7018 straight out of the box??
    It doesn't make any difference on the mild steel most of us use most of the time. Only "high strength" steels.

    Or that's my understanding.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Before I bought a wire feeder I ran probly 40 tons of 7018, 9018 and 11018 rods from 3/32 to 1/4...not a one of em was in an oven. Some of them were even wet. This was all on dragline buckets, excavators, dozers, loaders and stuff in coal breakers, none of it and I mean NONE of it broke. This work in the anthracite region is the ultimate welding test trust me. There is no weld code for this stuff, there are weld procedures that they ask you to follow but in the end all that matters is that it stays together and dont leak

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Today I would only use flux core wire E71T-11.
    Makes life simpler and a lot faster welding.

    Dave
    Let me get this right... you're preaching to us on how to correctly use a 7018 for critical welds (high quality welds with impact testing etc)

    ...but you wouldn't use 7018n and instead use E71T-11, which is a rutile FCAW with no impact requirements and gives generally quite poor weld qualities?

    You do realise that most of us have ran 7018 for all sorts of work and it's a pretty good and strong rod, regardless of low hydrogen requirements.
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    If the base metal or weld metal exceeds 80,000 psi (550 MPa) yield strength, this moisture may contribute to under-bead or weld cracking.
    ^ key word here

    Remember most of us use low carbon steels below 355 MPA yield, which isn't all that susceptible to hydrogen cracking.

    You have to have 3 things for hydrogen cracking:
    1. susceptible metal which will form hard brittle zones due to higher levels of carbon or alloying content
    2. high levels of restraint (such as on very thick sections)
    3. source of hydrogen, from moisture, or from oils/grease/paint

    Remember, the "low" hydrogen part is in contrast to the levels of moisture present in XX10, XX11, XX13 and XX24 rods. All of which have hydrogen, as they have levels of moisture!

    So, if you have the first two parts for hydrogen cracking (no.1 and no.2 above) then to achieve successful welds you need to eliminate no.3, which is where "low hydrogen" welding consumables come in. And yes, what you're saying is 100% correct, if you want to achieve that "H5" designation you have to observe the manufacturer's guidance on drying and baking etc.
    IF you don't need the "H5" or whatever, then all bets are off!

    As well as this, on critical welds you would observe perfect cleanliness, pre-heat, maybe post-weld heat treatment on heavier sections depending on metallurgy.

    So in conclusion, it's not as simple as saying "7018 without drying is baaad, mmkay". It's a LOT more complex than that.

    In the meantime, we'll keep on using 7018 for repair work on mild steels as we always have.
    Last edited by Munkul; 11-10-2021 at 06:12 AM.
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why


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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    I bigger question is why would buy a high cost rod and not use in correct way.
    It would be more cost-effective to use rod that does not need per heating and lower in cost.
    Also the low hydrogen rod if has moisture in rod make more brittle than more the low cost rods.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    ^ key word here

    Remember most of us use low carbon steels below 355 MPA yield, which isn't all that susceptible to hydrogen cracking.

    You have to have 3 things for hydrogen cracking:
    1. susceptible metal which will form hard brittle zones due to higher levels of carbon or alloying content
    2. high levels of restraint (such as on very thick sections)
    3. source of hydrogen, from moisture, or from oils/grease/paint

    Remember, the "low" hydrogen part is in contrast to the levels of moisture present in XX10, XX11, XX13 and XX24 rods. All of which have hydrogen, as they have levels of moisture!

    So, if you have the first two parts for hydrogen cracking (no.1 and no.2 above) then to achieve successful welds you need to eliminate no.3, which is where "low hydrogen" welding consumables come in. And yes, what you're saying is 100% correct, if you want to achieve that "H5" designation you have to observe the manufacturer's guidance on drying and baking etc.
    IF you don't need the "H5" or whatever, then all bets are off!

    As well as this, on critical welds you would observe perfect cleanliness, pre-heat, maybe post-weld heat treatment on heavier sections depending on metallurgy.

    So in conclusion, it's not as simple as saying "7018 without drying is baaad, mmkay". It's a LOT more complex than that.

    In the meantime, we'll keep on using 7018 for repair work on mild steels as we always have.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Stuff can happen. A sprout worked for me went to an tile company, the underground kind and not too long after they were repairing a shoe, several feet long and thick and they needed rod so the owner goes diving at a local outfit and finds a couple cans big ole fat rod in the scrap. Scottie says,,, man we worked days fitting this up, its high shock etc but the owner knows more about this than most people do and says,,, thats all bull**** and they weld it out 2 days.
    See, no problem,,, looks great and my bud said about 100 ft down the line they hit a rock and a big snap, full length delaminate underbead crack and they had to dig the shoe out with a backhoe.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Most here think all need to do is start welding.
    Heavy steel needs to be per heat before welding. I know I take lot about heating E7018 but on large steel plate needs to heated too.
    High strength steel can be over heated too. They make temp sticks you need two one over and under like go and no go gauge.

    It is one thing to do farm welding where if breaks as you plow field. Welding Heavy equipment repairs and buildings. This has to be done correctly and you get high paid for this type of work.

    I have fix a lot tools where as grind the old weld away you see bad welds. At this you know why the weld failed.
    Good day for my pocket book.

    When doing repair work the best thing are JB Weld and bad welds you know they try and fail. After you are finished they so happy the the equipment is working right again.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    Stuff can happen. A sprout worked for me went to an tile company, the underground kind and not too long after they were repairing a shoe, several feet long and thick and they needed rod so the owner goes diving at a local outfit and finds a couple cans big ole fat rod in the scrap. Scottie says,,, man we worked days fitting this up, its high shock etc but the owner knows more about this than most people do and says,,, thats all bull**** and they weld it out 2 days.
    See, no problem,,, looks great and my bud said about 100 ft down the line they hit a rock and a big snap, full length delaminate underbead crack and they had to dig the shoe out with a backhoe.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    I bigger question is why would buy a high cost rod and not use in correct way.
    If I could find a rod that was as tough/ductile as 7018 -- even when not used in its low-hydrogen condition -- I would use it. But 7018 gives -- by far -- the toughest, most ductile welds I've seen of any rod. Even when it's not perfectly dry.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    I bigger question is why would buy a high cost rod and not use in correct way.
    It would be more cost-effective to use rod that does not need per heating and lower in cost.
    Also the low hydrogen rod if has moisture in rod make more brittle than more the low cost rods.

    Dave
    Have to disagree with you on this one. 7018 costs the same for me as other standard rods.

    Also, I've not seen anything that says 7018 is more brittle than other rods when not stored properly - nor have I experienced it.
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    The cost for me was in 250 pound lots at that point there is a big difference.
    My first post has link about the E7018 being brittle. It is also found in the Lincoln books too.

    Dave

    FYI hydrogen gas is also use as a shielding gas too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    Have to disagree with you on this one. 7018 costs the same for me as other standard rods.

    Also, I've not seen anything that says 7018 is more brittle than other rods when not stored properly - nor have I experienced it.
    Last edited by smithdoor; 11-10-2021 at 12:21 PM.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    7018 brittle? In my experience, it leaves the LEAST brittle weld deposit of any rod I've ever used, brittle being the opposite of ductile in my book...

    Hard-facing rod is brittle. 7018, not so much. My BFH proves it.

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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    This thread is like a train wreck...painful to watch, but hard to look away.
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  38. #24
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    It some that needs to out open.
    It interesting to see other points of view.

    My background is doing welding had done by the book.
    Other here do not have go by book in there line of work. At times is suprises me what works outside of my world 🌎.

    In my world if did not follow the book it cost money. Sometimes a few have had go to jail for not following the book and the weld fail.

    Just think of welders that work on the Florida apartment building collapse that happened this year. They want to hang someone just start with welder.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    This thread is like a train wreck...painful to watch, but hard to look away.

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  40. #25
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    Re: E7018 the right way and why

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    It some that needs to out open.
    It interesting to see other points of view.

    My background is doing welding had done by the book.
    Other here do not have go by book in there line of work. At times is suprises me what works outside of my world ��.

    In my world if did not follow the book it cost money. Sometimes a few have had go to jail for not following the book and the weld fail.

    Just think of welders that work on the Florida apartment building collapse that happened this year. They want to hang someone just start with welder.

    Dave
    I honestly can't understand what half of your comments are supposed to mean. I generally just skip past your posts for that very reason, but when you start a technical thread and fill it with gobblygook it's a bit different.

    "It some that needs to out open."

    Can you try that in English this time?

    I'm sure you've got plenty of welding experience, but if you can't put together sentences and paragraphs that other people can understand I'm pretty sure nobody doing any sort of critical welding is going to follow your advice.

    People doing critical welding ALREADY KNOW they have to follow a process so you posting about this is a complete waste of space. It's not like the concept of hydrogen embrittlement is an unknown phenomenon. Hobby welders generally never have to worry about it, and certified welders should already know about it.
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