Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 48 of 48

Thread: Jumped on This One

  1. #26
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,865
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by CAVEMANN View Post
    Those are pretty cool.
    I can't have em for Christmas though cuz I just got a new grill/smoker, new dehydrator & a new gun.
    them little buggers have gone up in price, but its the only way to go (puts an end to that plastic thread stripping bs). they still loosen themselves up like the factory ones, but not as often, and the knobs big enough u can tighten them w/ ur gloves on. tell us about ur gun, what did u get? i bought two cheap hard cases for two scoped bolt actions im workin day after thanks giving sale. also bought me a brand new (not rebuilt) gm 350 long block in a crate. i guess thats my Christmas present, besides a flashlight, box of molassess chips, and a couple sweaters that i always get every yr

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,025
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    Oh my.... that is an even cheaper version of my cheapies. I see those go for less than $20 at farm auctions all the time with older, better head gear. No head gear kicking around from an old flip up grinding shield?
    Checked my face shield...............it's a Huntsman...........competely different headgear mounting system. It was a good thought thoughName:  tkqe4fh-smiley-two-thumbs-up175028_285604.gif
Views: 283
Size:  1.1 KB

  3. Likes whtbaron liked this post
  4. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    AJO, ARIZONA
    Posts
    4,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by 123weld View Post
    them little buggers have gone up in price, but its the only way to go (puts an end to that plastic thread stripping bs). they still loosen themselves up like the factory ones, but not as often, and the knobs big enough u can tighten them w/ ur gloves on. tell us about ur gun, what did u get? i bought two cheap hard cases for two scoped bolt actions im workin day after thanks giving sale. also bought me a brand new (not rebuilt) gm 350 long block in a crate. i guess thats my Christmas present, besides a flashlight, box of molassess chips, and a couple sweaters that i always get every yr
    Gun is a RUGER WRANGLER, it's a fairly new model, 22 LR, style is like the single six, bought it for rattle snakes & pack rats, I killed 5 rattlers inside my yard this summer& another one got away because of a malfunction of my Winchester 62A when trying to get at it in a congested area, I was using snake shot in the Winchester & since the gun is a pump action it sometimes would destroy the plastic BB capsule & dump the shot into the action, I inherited ththe gun from my grandfather I finally told the wife I was getting a 22 revolver, just for the snake shot. The little RUGER is built to compete with the AMERICAN HERITAGE & CHIAPPA, but the RUGER has a much better fit & finish, $189.00 plus tax, I have a good buddy witth his FFL get it, he matched the price from some of the gun dealers.
    Last edited by CAVEMANN; 12-06-2021 at 08:28 AM.

    NRA LIFE MEMBER

    UNITWELD 175 AMP 3 IN1 DC
    MIDSTATES 300 AMP AC MACHINE
    LET'S GO BRANDON!
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

  5. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    city of Four Flags
    Posts
    2,054
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    I have recently(last year) found 2 Huntsman 411P.....one with an old gold lens!
    Score!

  6. #30
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,865
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by CAVEMANN View Post
    Gun is a RUGER WRANGLER, it's a fairly new model, 22 LR, style is like the single six, bought it for rattle snakes & pack rats, I killed 5 rattlers inside my yard this summer& another one got away because of a malfunction of my Winchester 62A when trying to get at it in a congested area, I was using snake shot in the Winchester & since the gun is a pump action it sometimes would destroy the plastic BB capsule & dump the shot into the action, I inherited ththe gun from my grandfather I finally told the wife I was getting a 22 revolver, just for the snake shot. The little RUGER is built to compete with the AMERICAN HERITAGE & CHIAPPA, but the RUGER has a much better fit & finish, $189.00 plus tax, I have a good buddy witth his FFL get it, he matched the price from some of the gun dealers.
    i saw them wranglers at a shop earlier this yr, they had them in diff colors, kinda a alum anodized look. i wanted to check one out, but didnt want to wait in line. thats good price, i think these were like two and a quarter, or something, then all the fees/taxes is what ruins it. but thats a definate for u to have w/ them rattlers around. everyone in family should have one for that matter. im glad i dont live around them, those things are terrible. id think if one bit u, ur immune system would be compromised for life, and certainly wouldnt help ur kidneys any. id be lookin into raising/getting some mongooses, or building some hawk/owl nesting boxes or something - anything to keep them things away. i recently did a job on winchester ave in san jose, and went to the winchester mansion. i took a pic of a advertisement for maybe ur classic 22 rifle back in the day, ill try to post it
    Last edited by 123weld; 12-06-2021 at 07:50 PM.

  7. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    AJO, ARIZONA
    Posts
    4,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by 123weld View Post
    i saw them wranglers at a shop earlier this yr, they had them in diff colors, kinda a alum anodized look. i wanted to check one out, but didnt want to wait in line. thats good price, i think these were like two and a quarter, or something, then all the fees/taxes is what ruins it. but thats a definate for u to have w/ them rattlers around. everyone in family should have one for that matter. im glad i dont live around them, those things are terrible. id think if one bit u, ur immune system would be compromised for life, and certainly wouldnt help ur kidneys any. id be lookin into raising/getting some mongooses, or building some hawk/owl nesting boxes or something - anything to keep them things away. i recently did a job on winchester ave in san jose, and went to the winchester mansion. i took a pic of a advertisement for maybe ur classic 22 rifle back in the day, ill try to post it
    That's cool, I'd love to see an ad for it, it was my grandad's gun from his early days, not sure of the age of it. My first dealing with it was squirell hunting when I was a kid, then in 76 when I brought it home. My grandad had a pet groundhog that got out of it's pen after grandad died, the groundhog got to chasing grannie when she'd feed it so she asked me to put it down, one shot with a 22 LR did the job, gun is still in really good shape and is a dream to shoot. I ordered my WRANGLER in black. Cats work well for rattlers if you can keep the yotes away from em. We also have a few harmless snakes that can kill a rattler.
    Last edited by CAVEMANN; 12-06-2021 at 09:13 PM.

    NRA LIFE MEMBER

    UNITWELD 175 AMP 3 IN1 DC
    MIDSTATES 300 AMP AC MACHINE
    LET'S GO BRANDON!
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

  8. #32
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    Checked my face shield...............it's a Huntsman...........competely different headgear mounting system. It was a good thought thoughName:  tkqe4fh-smiley-two-thumbs-up175028_285604.gif
Views: 283
Size:  1.1 KB
    Now you had me wondering just what my older helmets have on them.... I've been using the Hobart AD almost exclusively for close to 10 yrs now. My "better" face shield was a Norton. I think it would work in a pinch, but the plastic is too light to last.

    Name:  IMG_7388.jpg
Views: 261
Size:  97.1 KB

    The stable of helmets includes the Hobart AD that has been a really good helmet, but Oscar's posts of $700 Optrels has me drooling a little. No complaints about the headset on this, but having to keep turning the AD back on if it's sat a few minutes is a pain. Name:  IMG_7387.JPG
Views: 264
Size:  222.4 KB

    There are 2 fixed lens black plastic helmets... one has a shade 5 for my O/A torch and has the double jointed band in the back mentioned in a previous post. Seems to work fine. The other was a freebie I picked up when I bought the Sears welder at auction so I keep a 10 shade in it. The old red fiberglass helmet came with the Forney in the 70's and is showing it's age. I keep a shade 13 in it. I thought I had changed the headgear in it once, but the rivets and hot glue suggest it got the old farmer fix instead.

    Name:  IMG_7386.JPG
Views: 265
Size:  221.4 KB
    Name:  IMG_7384.jpg
Views: 260
Size:  96.6 KB
    Name:  IMG_7383.jpg
Views: 261
Size:  100.0 KB
    The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...

    250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC Stick
    F-225 amp Forney AC Stick
    230 amp Sears AC Stick
    Lincoln 180C MIG
    Victor Medalist 350 O/A
    Cut 50 Plasma
    Les

  9. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,025
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    Now you had me wondering just what my older helmets have on them.... I've been using the Hobart AD almost exclusively for close to 10 yrs now. My "better" face shield was a Norton. I think it would work in a pinch, but the plastic is too light to last.

    Name:  IMG_7388.jpg
Views: 261
Size:  97.1 KB

    The stable of helmets includes the Hobart AD that has been a really good helmet, but Oscar's posts of $700 Optrels has me drooling a little. No complaints about the headset on this, but having to keep turning the AD back on if it's sat a few minutes is a pain. Name:  IMG_7387.JPG
Views: 264
Size:  222.4 KB

    There are 2 fixed lens black plastic helmets... one has a shade 5 for my O/A torch and has the double jointed band in the back mentioned in a previous post. Seems to work fine. The other was a freebie I picked up when I bought the Sears welder at auction so I keep a 10 shade in it. The old red fiberglass helmet came with the Forney in the 70's and is showing it's age. I keep a shade 13 in it. I thought I had changed the headgear in it once, but the rivets and hot glue suggest it got the old farmer fix instead.

    Name:  IMG_7386.JPG
Views: 265
Size:  221.4 KB
    Name:  IMG_7384.jpg
Views: 260
Size:  96.6 KB
    Name:  IMG_7383.jpg
Views: 261
Size:  100.0 KB
    I can go two ways. Get the hardhat with the 3C headgear as suggested, or go with the face shield with the C3 headgear. You can pick up the face shield, sans plastic shield, for about 18 bucks..............but I already have a good face shield. I might just grab a hard hat. Like said.............it might be really nice for some nasty overhead.

    The bonus is...................K'kins can toss little (I hope they're little) pebbles at me whilst welding, to inform me it's time to come in the house for supper. A gentle ping on the hardhat beats getting yelled at

  10. #34
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Can't you buy just decent headgear cheaper than a hard hat?
    The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...

    250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC Stick
    F-225 amp Forney AC Stick
    230 amp Sears AC Stick
    Lincoln 180C MIG
    Victor Medalist 350 O/A
    Cut 50 Plasma
    Les

  11. #35
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Here's a Forney for $10 US.... no idea how good it is though....

    https://www.amazon.com/Forney-55674-...98203022&psc=1


    Here's another one with more padding for $10 US.... my price goes up to $24 Cdn.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ZDOAH8...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

    $15 (? I'm not sure, my version isn't clear on US/Cdn $ or taxes you'll need to re-search these from an American address...) gets you a Lincoln....

    https://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Elect..._t3_B003ZDOAH8
    Last edited by whtbaron; 12-06-2021 at 09:56 PM.
    The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...

    250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC Stick
    F-225 amp Forney AC Stick
    230 amp Sears AC Stick
    Lincoln 180C MIG
    Victor Medalist 350 O/A
    Cut 50 Plasma
    Les

  12. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,025
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    It's crazy

    A standalone headgear costs more than a face shield https://www.ebay.com/itm/33420425591...4AAOSwXjRhgWWM

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/18509219043...YAAOSwRpthXfra

    Going the hardhat route can be cheaper too https://www.ebay.com/itm/17358369232...QAAOSwoDlbv3d5

    I'm thinking a roll of duct tape might be a good alternative Separate the men from the boys when you pull that tape off your noggin

  13. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    3,869
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    You can also get a hard hat with Quik loks but then you need the Quik loks adapters. on the helmet. Less expensive than a 3C headgear but you need the quick Lok hardhat. US price would be cheaper. Fibre-Metal has had the Quik Loks way before a lot of jobs now require hardhats while welding. I think they are the best hard hat/welding helmet set up. A 4906 helmet comes with the Quik lok adapters. Quik Lok adapters are also available for slotted hard hats and their is also a kit where you can screw Quik Lok adapters to any kind of hard hat. The biggest problem with Fibre-Metal (as agreed by a Honeywell rep) is that Honeywell kind of dropped the ball as far parts go and figuring out what parts numbers you need. I've only used Fibre-Metal helmets. Started off using a 706 but then graduated to a Tiger Hood 906. They will crack and break though. Some of the 3M Speedglas helmets usually an exact copy of the 3C headgear. The newer headgear on a lot of helmets may be more comfortable but seems pretty flimsy too. The 3C can break or strip out but generally lasts a long time if you don't over tighten it. You shouldn't need to tighten it enough to cause a headache.

    https://canadaweldingsupply.ca/produ...ok-cups-fm4001

  14. Likes 123weld, farmersammm liked this post
  15. #38
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,865
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    The
    I just have a knack for getting into bad dealsAttachment 1734086
    ::
    sounds like ur ready to do it again. hardhat is a ill fitting, heavy clumsy setup, and head gear breaks in hardhat due to hood right at plastic tab(s). id hardly use one if i diodnt have too. pay/buy the 3c and end the headache. used/unwanted hard hats are laying around all over, just keep ur eyes peeled
    Last edited by 123weld; 12-07-2021 at 05:44 PM.

  16. #39
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,865
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    You can also get a hard hat with Quik loks but then you need the Quik loks adapters. on the helmet. Less expensive than a 3C headgear but you need the quick Lok hardhat. US price would be cheaper. Fibre-Metal has had the Quik Loks way before a lot of jobs now require hardhats while welding. I think they are the best hard hat/welding helmet set up. A 4906 helmet comes with the Quik lok adapters. Quik Lok adapters are also available for slotted hard hats and their is also a kit where you can screw Quik Lok adapters to any kind of hard hat. The biggest problem with Fibre-Metal (as agreed by a Honeywell rep) is that Honeywell kind of dropped the ball as far parts go and figuring out what parts numbers you need. I've only used Fibre-Metal helmets. Started off using a 706 but then graduated to a Tiger Hood 906. They will crack and break though. Some of the 3M Speedglas helmets usually an exact copy of the 3C headgear. The newer headgear on a lot of helmets may be more comfortable but seems pretty flimsy too. The 3C can break or strip out but generally lasts a long time if you don't over tighten it. You shouldn't need to tighten it enough to cause a headache.

    https://canadaweldingsupply.ca/produ...ok-cups-fm4001
    reason i like the speed loop way better , if i'm not stationary at one weld/place, and im moving around i usually dont clip it down on hardhat. i just set it on, and can lift it off w/ one hand, and/or spin it 180, so it hangs behind me as i move/walk. the 910 is a light, and it works good for doing that

  17. #40
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,865
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by CAVEMANN View Post
    That's cool, I'd love to see an ad for it, it was my grandad's gun from his early days, not sure of the age of it. My first dealing with it was squirell hunting when I was a kid, then in 76 when I brought it home. My grandad had a pet groundhog that got out of it's pen after grandad died, the groundhog got to chasing grannie when she'd feed it so she asked me to put it down, one shot with a 22 LR did the job, gun is still in really good shape and is a dream to shoot. I ordered my WRANGLER in black. Cats work well for rattlers if you can keep the yotes away from em. We also have a few harmless snakes that can kill a rattler.
    well, wasnt quite the same model of .22, but it was meant for boys, and it sounds like u were shooting grandpas when u were a boy, so i'm posting it anyway, along w/ a old calender. sounds like u got some tough cats over there, i usually keep the most aggressive/alert kitten from a litter that our cat has, but they keep getting run over in the street. i live across the street from mr. and mrs, sheep. they have a nice pretty place, w/ free food for them to eat. calif cats, like everything free

    Name:  DSC00583.jpg
Views: 184
Size:  80.4 KB
    Name:  DSC00579.jpg
Views: 187
Size:  64.9 KB
    Last edited by 123weld; 12-31-2021 at 05:22 PM.

  18. Likes 12V71 liked this post
  19. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Pitman PA
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I can go two ways. Get the hardhat with the 3C headgear as suggested, or go with the face shield with the C3 headgear. You can pick up the face shield, sans plastic shield, for about 18 bucks..............but I already have a good face shield. I might just grab a hard hat. Like said.............it might be really nice for some nasty overhead.

    The bonus is...................K'kins can toss little (I hope they're little) pebbles at me whilst welding, to inform me it's time to come in the house for supper. A gentle ping on the hardhat beats getting yelled at
    I use the quik lok things on a hardhat for my work. The reason being one time as a young fella someone dropped a big spud wrench on my head...fortunately it landed sideways, I got up off the floor with a goose egg the size of Manhattan on top of my head and got to see all the constellations and probably a few noone ever knew existed. Im one of these guys that always knocks my head into stuff and have the lumpiest head in Schuykill County Dutchylvania. So I wear a hardhat. Some places I work its required anyway if Im not welding but I wear it anyway...I figure its my head I wanna keep it intact if possible.

    I did get a nice spud wrench out of the deal though...none came down off the iron to claim it and if they did I probly would have slapped him in the face with it before I gave it back to him.

    The only thing I dont like about the fibre metal hoods is they crack after awhile in the cold weather, the plastic should be more flexible like the newer ones that have the auto dark lenses in them. So what I do is get about 3 or 4 at a whack and use one till it falls apart and I cant gorilla tape and JB Weld it together anymore. The lady I get em from gives me a good deal on them when I buy 3 or 4 of them. One hood will last about 2 or 3 years constant use unless I drop it from up on a haul truck or shovel boom

  20. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    AR
    Posts
    2,264
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Pop, if any of the welding accessory manufacturers want to field test their products, they should send them to you first!! You run them through the obstacle course for sure! Happy New Year.

  21. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,039
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Epoxy/JB weld tip for plastic cracks like that - drill a few small holes above and below the crack (in addition to the holes at the start and end of the crack), and Add some fiberglass mesh (drywall tape type is the cheapest or you can use the usual type made for epoxy work).

    I will cut some strips of the fiberglass, roll it a bit and "sew" it through the holes, and use a layer of glass on the front and back over the "sewn" bits. Then work the jb weld or epoxy in real good - make sure the holes are completely filled and the fiberglass is saturated, and it essentially makes a mechanical riveted plate type connection.

    If JB weld is liquid steel, then is is a "fibre metal" repair.
    Last edited by SlowBlues; 01-01-2022 at 12:10 PM.

  22. Likes whtbaron liked this post
  23. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Pitman PA
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by shortfuse View Post
    Pop, if any of the welding accessory manufacturers want to field test their products, they should send them to you first!! You run them through the obstacle course for sure! Happy New Year.
    You must be talkin to my wife...she says the same thing. Someone here a few years ago mentioned me doin that with one of the big name manufacturers I dont remember which one anymore. Im thinkin they might have realized how I push things a bit harder than most and thought better of it

  24. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Pitman PA
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowBlues View Post
    Epoxy/JB weld tip for plastic cracks like that - drill a few small holes above and below the crack (in addition to the holes at the start and end of the crack), and Add some fiberglass mesh (drywall tape type is the cheapest or you can use the usual type made for epoxy work).

    I will cut some strips of the fiberglass, roll it a bit and "sew" it through the holes, and use a layer of glass on the front and back over the "sewn" bits. Then work the jb weld or epoxy in real good - make sure the holes are completely filled and the fiberglass is saturated, and it essentially makes a mechanical riveted plate type connection.




    If JB weld is liquid steel, then is is a "fibre metal" repair.

    That sounds like a strong repair there. Me and JB weld go back a long way...I think the first time I used it was on an old radiator for a loader, I am no good at brazing so I did the JB weld thing and it worked up until they scrapped that old loader about 4 years later

  25. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,934
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by old miner called Pop View Post
    That sounds like a strong repair there. Me and JB weld go back a long way...I think the first time I used it was on an old radiator for a loader, I am no good at brazing so I did the JB weld thing and it worked up until they scrapped that old loader about 4 years later
    I JB Welded a dime over a hole on the top of a piston in a Renault one time, it drove great for a couple of days till it came loose. I found it in the pan all stretched out like it had been on the RR track, somehow it got thin enough to slip past the piston and rings.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  26. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Pitman PA
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    I JB Welded a dime over a hole on the top of a piston in a Renault one time, it drove great for a couple of days till it came loose. I found it in the pan all stretched out like it had been on the RR track, somehow it got thin enough to slip past the piston and rings.
    Its definitely some amazing stuff...I fixed an engine block for an old International tractor (I think it was an H) once that had a hole busted through like a jigsaw puzzle. I took all the pieces and JB'd em to a piece of sheet metal and stuck it fast to the block. When the JB was good and dry I put a few tacks on it to keep it there. It still runs today anbd has no leaks

  27. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Pitman PA
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Jumped on This One

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    I JB Welded a dime over a hole on the top of a piston in a Renault one time, it drove great for a couple of days till it came loose. I found it in the pan all stretched out like it had been on the RR track, somehow it got thin enough to slip past the piston and rings.
    <br><br>


    Its definitely some amazing stuff...I fixed an engine block for an old International tractor (I think it was an H) once that had a hole busted through like a jigsaw puzzle. I took all the pieces and&nbsp; JB'd em to a piece of sheet metal and stuck it fast to the block. When the JB was good and dry I put a few tacks on it to keep it there. It still runs today anbd has no leaks<br>
    <br>

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Page generated in 1,652,804,979.66122 seconds with 13 queries