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Thread: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

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    Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Just curious if Miller ever made an adjustable-voltage, adjustable-current true DC welder like the Lincoln SAE series. Seems like I've never seen or heard of one.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Yes
    Miller and Hobat very good welders for CC and CV welding water cool.
    Lincoln has more of a name for most welders.
    But when purchasing a welding I look price too typical the red cost more. Lincoln has better adds.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Beaver View Post
    Just curious if Miller ever made an adjustable-voltage, adjustable-current true DC welder like the Lincoln SAE series. Seems like I've never seen or heard of one.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Beaver View Post
    Just curious if Miller ever made an adjustable-voltage, adjustable-current true DC welder like the Lincoln SAE series. Seems like I've never seen or heard of one.
    If they did, it was well before my time. The old Big series were not true DC generators as you probably know; you'd have to go to before that (if there was a "before that" with Miller engine drives).

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Yes
    Miller and Hobat very good welders for CC and CV welding water cool.
    Lincoln has more of a name for most welders.
    But when purchasing a welding I look price too typical the red cost more. Lincoln has better adds.

    Dave


    Mr. Dave, you really have me curious about something. I have picked up from your posts on Welding Web that you used to be a large manufacturer of airplane hangar doors. Or a manufacturer of large hangar doors.
    How did you go about fabricating a door for a customer? I would assume that there was a blueprint, and that you would have followed the blueprint, with its specs, very closely. So closely, in fact, that the door you built was exactly like the customer asked to be built. It would have been a very satisfactory response for the request. A very exact response.
    On this forum, the first post on any topic is very much like a blueprint. Our answer, or what we build, should, at least for the most part, match the blueprint.
    I really believe you would build a far better end product here if you would "study out" the "blueprints" a little more!
    I certainly wish you well!

    Sent from my E6810 using http://tiny.cc/Forums_reader

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    I did the designing and the blueprints with all hardware. The work had session was from September to March.
    The other part of year was finding welding jobs to do.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by villageblacksmith View Post


    Mr. Dave, you really have me curious about something. I have picked up from your posts on Welding Web that you used to be a large manufacturer of airplane hangar doors. Or a manufacturer of large hangar doors.
    How did you go about fabricating a door for a customer? I would assume that there was a blueprint, and that you would have followed the blueprint, with its specs, very closely. So closely, in fact, that the door you built was exactly like the customer asked to be built. It would have been a very satisfactory response for the request. A very exact response.
    On this forum, the first post on any topic is very much like a blueprint. Our answer, or what we build, should, at least for the most part, match the blueprint.
    I really believe you would build a far better end product here if you would "study out" the "blueprints" a little more!
    I certainly wish you well!

    Sent from my E6810 using http://tiny.cc/Forums_reader

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by tbone550 View Post
    If they did, it was well before my time. The old Big series were not true DC generators as you probably know; you'd have to go to before that (if there was a "before that" with Miller engine drives).
    I have never seen a Miller engine drive with a pure dc generator. Since the original intent of Mr Miller was to make a DC power source with rectified AC power, I highly doubt they ever had a pure generator engine drive. But anything is possible.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Don't know.
    Westinghouse was best I ever used/owned. Mine was a 6 cylinder Chrysler industrial 236 CID.

    I had estimated it as 400 Amp, but I later learned it was rated at 320 Amp output. My uncle claimed to have seen just after WWII piecework welders using two stingers each, two welders working from one machine. Theoretically, if one at a time was replacing a rod, it might work. I kind of doubt the coordination.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    I’ve never seen one. And Hobart apparently dropped
    the DC generator machines when they were
    acquired with Miller. Too bad. I liked the old Hobart
    engine drive and motor/ generator machines that I
    used.
    Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XL
    Millermatic 180
    Purox O/A
    Smith Littletorch O/A
    Hobart Champion Elite

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Hobart did make a DC Welder generator type I had a 213 air cooled witch was a great welder.

    I like the old type ture DC Welder .
    The new Ac to DC is OK but just not as good as the good old type DC generator type.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by jpump5 View Post
    I’ve never seen one. And Hobart apparently dropped
    the DC generator machines when they were
    acquired with Miller. Too bad. I liked the old Hobart
    engine drive and motor/ generator machines that I
    used.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    The DC only commutator concept was simple, by all accounts wonderful to weld with.

    If you rectify AC power without adding anything to level out the current, you get a pulsating DC. It risks loss of ionization necessary to maintain an arc. The old true DC generator machines were using several coils simultaneously to power your arc. No loss of ionization, a smooth arc.

    Newer technology should be able to replicate the level of smooth they generated, but nostalgia reveres the old.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    The DC only commutator concept was simple, by all accounts wonderful to weld with.

    If you rectify AC power without adding anything to level out the current, you get a pulsating DC. It risks loss of ionization necessary to maintain an arc. The old true DC generator machines were using several coils simultaneously to power your arc. No loss of ionization, a smooth arc.

    Newer technology should be able to replicate the level of smooth they generated, but nostalgia reveres the old.
    For 30 years I was rabidly against anything that wasn't an SA200, but I have made my peace with the rectified 3 phase Trailblazers. For the cost of an SA200 I can buy several TB's and dump them a few times at 1,000-1500 hours and be happy. I do miss the sound of the unmuffled SA's

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    For 30 years I was rabidly against anything that wasn't an SA200, but I have made my peace with the rectified 3 phase Trailblazers. For the cost of an SA200 I can buy several TB's and dump them a few times at 1,000-1500 hours and be happy. I do miss the sound of the unmuffled SA's
    I've never enjoyed the pleasure of a SA200. I used a Westinghouse before I owned it, wasted years trying to talk its owner into selling, while it sat under the eaves behind the barn. 15 years later, he called to say he was dying, if I wanted it, it was mine. I rebuilt the engine, but never produced a weld again.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Very old technology does the job of a good smother DC out put.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    The DC only commutator concept was simple, by all accounts wonderful to weld with.

    If you rectify AC power without adding anything to level out the current, you get a pulsating DC. It risks loss of ionization necessary to maintain an arc. The old true DC generator machines were using several coils simultaneously to power your arc. No loss of ionization, a smooth arc.

    Newer technology should be able to replicate the level of smooth they generated, but nostalgia reveres the old.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I've never enjoyed the pleasure of a SA200. I used a Westinghouse before I owned it, wasted years trying to talk its owner into selling, while it sat under the eaves behind the barn. 15 years later, he called to say he was dying, if I wanted it, it was mine. I rebuilt the engine, but never produced a weld again.
    I'm sure that Westinghouse was a great machine, never had a chance to try one. There was a Westinghouse for sale locally once many years ago, I went and took a look... The thing was as big as my 3/4 ton pickup and was mounted on a rubber tire wagon type chassis in an enclosure that did say "Westinghouse" on all sides. I do not recall the maximum amperage but it had a good sized 6 cylinder engine. It would never have fit on any normal welding rig truck, so I passed on it.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    I'm sure that Westinghouse was a great machine, never had a chance to try one. There was a Westinghouse for sale locally once many years ago, I went and took a look... The thing was as big as my 3/4 ton pickup and was mounted on a rubber tire wagon type chassis in an enclosure that did say "Westinghouse" on all sides. I do not recall the maximum amperage but it had a good sized 6 cylinder engine. It would never have fit on any normal welding rig truck, so I passed on it.
    It was HEAVY. I put used six ply tires on it at 50 PSI & blew both out in only a few miles. If I recall I had four major blow outs total. I never knew what it weighed, but it was plenty.

    I've never really known fact wise what made the old multi winding brush machines so popular. Voltage was very low, so out of position stuff worked better. Frequency of pulsation in DC was high. Never lost current flow, as several windings were sending power simultaneously. I vaguely recall it being a four pole machine. I don't recall it having much in the way of capacitors to level out the current, I'll guess it didn't need them.

    Another theory, is the engine size & the rotor weight. It made a pretty good flywheel, able to maintain rotating speed even under sudden load. Probably would have worked with a smaller engine, but not as steady & predictable. If I remember correctly, the Chrysler 236 was rated in the 115 HP/280 Foot Pounds range. Compare that to my Miller Bobcat, 23 HP, I don't know torque, but it sure isn't 280 Foot Pounds. The rotor on the Westinghouse was twice the whole machine weight on the Bobcat.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    I wonder if there's a good reason why modern inverters don't have adjustable V-A curves like the SA DC generators.
    Is it because adjustable arc force does pretty much the same thing in practice? Even though it doesn't change the V-A curve per se, it does tweak the amount of current for a given arc length (volts)... so I suppose in effect, changing the V-A curve?
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    I wonder if there's a good reason why modern inverters don't have adjustable V-A curves like the SA DC generators.
    Is it because adjustable arc force does pretty much the same thing in practice? Even though it doesn't change the V-A curve per se, it does tweak the amount of current for a given arc length (volts)... so I suppose in effect, changing the V-A curve?
    I believe the value of adjustable Volts in an old Lincoln is your ability to tailor the arc properties to the task at hand. Higher volts, fewer amps work well in flat work, It lays a smooth bead with less texture in the finished weld & wets well (fusion). Lower voltage makes for a deeper penetration, (fast freeze, more adhesion) in vertical, or overhead.
    Arc force is there for a different reason, although it could be said you reduce voltage with a very short arc, which is likely to snuff out, arc force prevents that.

    A few other welders do give choices of voltage. I have two Twentieth Century machines with different taps for different voltage. Current is adjusted by a rheostat.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    I'm just a little surprised that in this day and age where you have 10 million variables on your TIG arc (and most of them pointless) that adjustable arc voltage isn't seen as something anyone wants to mess with. It wouldn't be difficult for inverter manufacturers to do.
    My conclusion I'm drawing from this is that it's truly not that important, but then also not that important is a 5000hz TIG pulse, and there's a few manufacturers making those.
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    From welders that used Westinghouse said it was very smooth to run.

    Today's welders are 3 phase generator and converted to DC to a reactor. I think it gives a smooth weld too.

    I like the water cool welder of pass they last for ever . Today they have a lot electronics for bells and wishes.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    I'm sure that Westinghouse was a great machine, never had a chance to try one. There was a Westinghouse for sale locally once many years ago, I went and took a look... The thing was as big as my 3/4 ton pickup and was mounted on a rubber tire wagon type chassis in an enclosure that did say "Westinghouse" on all sides. I do not recall the maximum amperage but it had a good sized 6 cylinder engine. It would never have fit on any normal welding rig truck, so I passed on it.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Here schematic of new welders.
    Give a screen shot welder then the electronics for bells and wishlists

    Dave
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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    I haven't used a three phase engine welder. Theoretically, three phase source with capacitors, then rectifier should be steady. Old engine welders were equivalent to multi phase power source, but newer have capacitors should even out the power flow.

    Old machines had a good deal more rotating mass to power through the sudden load events. They had more torque in the engine, & more horsepower to maintain the power in the stinger.

    Just me guessing here.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I believe the value of adjustable Volts in an old Lincoln is your ability to tailor the arc properties to the task at hand. Higher volts, fewer amps work well in flat work, It lays a smooth bead with less texture in the finished weld & wets well (fusion). Lower voltage makes for a deeper penetration, (fast freeze, more adhesion) in vertical, or overhead.
    Arc force is there for a different reason, although it could be said you reduce voltage with a very short arc, which is likely to snuff out, arc force prevents that.

    A few other welders do give choices of voltage. I have two Twentieth Century machines with different taps for different voltage. Current is adjusted by a rheostat.
    Your point on arc force is spot on. With more arc force you can take a 6010 rod and smash it into the puddle without having to turn up the amperage. It took me a bit to figure it out when I went to the Trailblazers. The new 325 has even more adjustment than the 302's did. Thats a new learning curve for me.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    I got an SA or 2 would trade for a TB.

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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    The Lincoln Ranger 330mpx also has Arc Force, along with Hot Start, Pinch, Pulse Spool Gun and Pulse Tig.
    Its processes are: Stick, Spool Gun, CV Mig, CV FCAW-SS, Tig, Gouge and Pipe.

    Lincoln has been talking about a big announcement this month and the photo reveals a 330mpx, I'm hoping it's remote start, I'll add that to my machine in a heart beat. But we'll see what the announcement is first before I get my hopes up.

    That new Frontier 400X has a sleep mode, that after X amount of time of non use it will shut off and to start it back up all you have to do is initiate an arc at the work piece.
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    Re: Did Miller ever make an equivalent to the SAE welders?

    I have 4 engine drives and dont use any. I kind of need to have one like a fire truck but I am not welding anything significant. If I was behind the hood at scale pay every day aint no way wouldnt have a rootin tootin big azz CC/CV, big carbon, big fat wire. Like Pop said,,, 500,,, even better.
    If I was doing a start up would look at used auction equipment and get big,,,, big,,, big and bad and worry about the milage later if it all worked but when they wanted the baddest wouldnt let the machine be a limiting factor.
    I have helped with a couple start ups. I have seen it done with 1 small used backhoe and sheer determination but also where we bought a machine that outclassed the competitors in certain situations. Crane and wrecker size etc.

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