Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

[Sberry]

There are electrical that they allowed in industry settings they do not allow in homes.

There are a few things , feel free to elaborate on some of them, even a couple bigger ones. If we tyhought about it might even find a few or more allowed in homes and not industry and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what is "industry" It it all commercial buildings or steel factory?

[smithdoor]

I agree
Most are trying as small as posable wire.
They do not take in voltage drop witch can be a problem with welding.
If have a run over 50 feet I calculate the drop.

Dave

It may be true someone can interpret it that way but it isnt what it says. My bet is no one ever burned the shack down welding from a 10 with a 50 on it. I have ran buzzers on that in the summer, machine dam near glowing and wire barely warm.
I wired a multi of some kind a while back, a 200 and the load at rated was like 16, less than an old 180-210 mig. It was new to me so I looked it up. I thought I read it wrong and looked 2x. I did use a heavier wire but it allowed 14 at 48ft. I think the 190 or 210 allows it to 65 ft maybe?
If you asked me 35 years ago if we would have been running a 1/8lo hy under 20A 240 or even around that on 120 I would have said bull****. When I was a kid I hadt6 on every outlet cause I had read 1 chart in the whole book, I really didnt understand those 10 cable 50 installed by masters were legal and uit all wasnt enough instinct then to know the difference in imagined and actual load.
This is why I am a bit sensitive to it here, my early mentor was obsessed with that and it really got in the way for a long while till I study a bit more formally and get away from the hearsay and the one liners.
I focus today in these threds on things I done wrong or could have done differently, easier or cheaper and the things I "DIDNT" understand vs all the things I know. Where was my speculation,,, my estimate wrong, where was the hearsay faulty, where were all these guesses as to the risk, the cost, all that not accurate but absolutely sworn to till they were red in the face.
Guys dont learn much when the answer to every outlet question is to simply put a 6 to them. There are times wire oversize is a problem and it can introduce other code violations especially with compound errors. Did the guy upsize the ground with the oversize wire to his comp? Then there is the added equipment, properly size wire to this ****ty auto drains or the light schemes these comps did not come with,,, the machines pre wired and pre engineered to meed codes and nema till someone fuss with the controls to "make it better" like the guys from IR are stupid etc.

[whtbaron]

A dialarc is not sposed to use a 50 recept due to the fact it needs a breaker bigger than 50. Circuits zbove 50 should be direct wired. A 211 allows 14 if single circuit in pipe if breaker is limited to 30. 12 in pipe would allow a 12 wire. The 12/30 Miller suggested would be good cable or pipe, could go to 10 cable and up to 50 for that machine and buzzers if you wanted.
I install them 10/30 with the possibility of going to 50 but,,,,, its never fricken happened. If i get a 300 synchro i gonna run a circuit for it and keep my small circuit for the machine its intended for.

I needed it to work right, so I wired it myself...


Oddly enough I've never tripped the 50 amp breaker with the Dialarc, but I rarely weld over 150 amps and the rods don't last forever so you are running a limited time, so I'll invoke Bigb's small conductor rule. The one that has tripped the breaker is the old Sears buzz box. Might be starting to show it's age, or maybe I shouldn't get lazy and torch things off at 230 amps with it...

[bigb]

Where live the building department would not buy that.
The local building department basic make a difference from industry and home use.

There are electrical that they allowed in industry settings they do not allow in homes.

Dave

Oh so it's not a code change but it's what you think your local AHJ will allow or not allow? What are they good ol boys making up the rules as they go? Unless there are local amendments on public record an inspector or planner cannot just make sh!t up.

[smithdoor]

Looks like Comcast and Telephone company had fun.

Dave

I needed it to work right, so I wired it myself...


Oddly enough I've never tripped the 50 amp breaker with the Dialarc, but I rarely weld over 150 amps and the rods don't last forever so you are running a limited time, so I'll invoke Bigb's small conductor rule. The one that has tripped the breaker is the old Sears buzz box. Might be starting to show it's age, or maybe I shouldn't get lazy and torch things off at 230 amps with it...

[smithdoor]

Yes
I do not try to change as it would slow down the work.

Dave

Oh so it's not a code change but it's what you think your local AHJ will allow or not allow? What are they good ol boys making up the rules as they go? Unless there are local amendments on public record an inspector or planner cannot just make sh!t up.

[idacal]

I try to always run the size of wire for the breaker in the overall picture the wire is cheap. what happens to me is i make dedicated circuit with as small of wire as i can then i need to add another plug for something else and it snowballs next thing you know your popping breakers again. I used an old single phase idealarc at my dads house when i was in my early 20s it wouldnt trip the 60 amp shop breaker untill i hooked my suitcase up to it then look out. Or see a trailer house that got all the smoke let out. Now i try to wire as idiot proof as i know how to.

[Sberry]

There is an assumption that because its a minimum its not adequate. Code in most regards has changed very little. Mostly ground, gfci, a couple wire size changes for feeders. They dont rewrite it every other weekend cause they bored, zame for local amendments, there are few.

[Sberry]

I think its somewhat open to change part without effecting fundamental principle. Some things they are willing to accept the time frame for change, hence grandfather, so they figure for future.
60 A was common, we really wanna change out a lot of service drope wire to go to 100? Lots was 100 now feeds 200.

[Sberry]

Now we are shaving some peak loads even though we have a few more but dropping parasitic in the way of lights very fast. Higher voltage let them run 5 hp that used to be 4.
My bud has a 5 Sears, one of those alum pump stand up jobs,. He bought it used from a local guy wanna upgrade and paid 400 for it. 28A. It was really a good unit, really made wind and recover fast for mechanic work. Used it every day.
There are a few more tvs and phone chargers but that load is gone and huge drop in lights in comparison the the rest of the neighborhood.
The addition of a 211 to the world is minor and so small you can tap it with 50 ft of 14 wire. Having said that i will agree with guys coming unglued that wont get an argument from me that it simply aint worth it and anyone doing a job will have a better wire than that. Now,,, the use of cable for convenience circuit makes it easy to keep a single simple circuit.
There is no reason not to future proof with a convenience outlet, a 12 cable, i can find a 10 easy but big difference in this speculation, for a tool he has vs investing 4$ a foot across the shop just in case .

[Sberry]

So this op wants to put in 4 outlets, 1 long one, 2 modest and 1 short and has an open ceiling. Lets assume he wants a full 6/50,,, do they all need this? Normally we would put a large load near the panel if we could and it might have been part of the design in the first place. Zecondly, in yjis shop if a guy just had to use a 252 might consider 50 ft cord and make it a shorter circuit than hard wire in some circumstance.
As a side note lots of distance to be shaved if a couple pieces of pipe are installed under the floor

[wmgeorge]

What Sberry and Louie has posted is correct, I was a licensed master before retiring. Why and the hell would you wire for a welder 3x heavier wiring than you need? Voltage drop is nil on circuits like this until you get to a few 100 feet. Do the calculations.

[Sberry]

I am all for practical. Like the man said 3x,, not only that 4x. No one is advocating the minmum and jumping up a step can solve a couple issues. But its important to recognize the allowable. Gives a little perspective to up sizing.
Some of the suggestions for future proff i have never used in 4 decades. I never needed to pull a 100 service up to a light fixture,, ha, or even needed a bigger pipe or wire to one. I have a lot of parked wire,,, wire sitting in pipe with little or no load and was way over kill just in case before the 500 watt quarts fixture became opsolete. 2, 3 or 4 circuits where now 1 15A would do.

[bigb]

For future proofing an empty conduit from panel to blanked off J-box is always an option. I sometimes do that in garages for future electric vehicles. I was too busy to do this in my own garage and later ended up running surface conduit for heaters.

[Willie B]

The 200% allowed in code is "up to" Intent is inrush, or stick the rod. A breaker sized for circuit size trips, you can upsize.

NEC also allows that conductors be sized for less than full welder load because of limited duty cycle. I once studied the requirements for the cord & receptacle. Most older welders were supplied with a 50 amp plug despite a 60 amp input. I've lost track of what I found in code, logic says conductor could match receptacle size.

[wmgeorge]

What the NEC says about wiring for Welders, this is just one page the Section has several.

[Willie B]

What the NEC says about wiring for Welders, this is just one page the Section has several.

Yup. My copy has a bunch of Italicized I1eff stuff I barely understand.
In example: a 60 amp peak welder with 50% duty cycle will calculate to 42.6 amp conductor.
Table 310.16: If you can find four terminals rated over 75 degrees C I revere you. I will select from the 75 degree column, even though I am using 90 degree conductors.
In copper at 75 degrees I need #8 conductors.

This does not factor voltage loss.

If your supply chain wastes voltage, most inverter welders will function OK if the supply will tolerate sharply higher amperage. Transformer welders misbehave at voltage sharply lower than design. Voltage loss can be calculated. You must factor length & amperage at each stage of supply power. In some cases, it is money well spent to upsize the welder circuit, or it may be necessary to upgrade farther upstream.

[Sberry]

Sure, 60A at 50% is different than 50A macine at 20 and slightly different than a 210 mig. I agree sometimes its more effecient to size up.
One of the benifits to new machines may be the cost of the circuit or even the main.

[danielplace]

Some of the later half of 630 is dedicated to RESISTANCE WELDERS only.

The page posted is only for resistance welders.

[wmgeorge]

Yup what do you think a Stick, TIG or MIG welder is? Still a form of welding covered by 630 Read this > https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/arc-welding-equipment-article-630-overcurrent-protection-and-conductor-sizing.2558956/

and this >https://up.codes/s/electric-welders

[danielplace]

Yup what do you think a Stick, TIG or MIG welder is? Still a form of welding covered by 630 Read this > https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/...izing.2558956/

and this >https://up.codes/s/electric-welders

Stick, Mig and Tig are not resistance welders.

https://www.aws.org/rwma/page/resistance-welding

A resistance welder is a specialized type of welding where the two metals to be joined are pressed togther and a current is run through them to make the weld. There is no filler and not really even a normal type arc like you have with stick, mig and tig.

It is same as spot welding except continuous weld.

https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/...izing.2558956/

That thread doesn't refer to anything in article 630 after where 630.31 resistance welding begins.

[wmgeorge]

Read the Links I posted Article on welding....... and 630 covers all. I can go back and try to find some old Code books but its been the same Forever.

[danielplace]

Read the Links I posted Article on welding....... and 630 covers all. I can go back and try to find some old Code books but its been the same Forever.

Your missing the entire point of my post. After 630.31 the page that was copied and posted first.

630 is the ARC welding section. Yea I know that. We all know that.

What people do not realize is after 630.31 you have entered to resistance welding section that would not apply to stick, tig or mig welders. It specifically says it is for resistance welders.

Read what I wrote. AFTER 630.31 it is referring to resistance welders specifically. Not that 630 doesn't apply to welders we use at all.

[wmgeorge]

Your missing the entire point of my post. After 630.31 the page that was copied and posted first.

630 is the ARC welding section. Yea I know that. We all know that.

What people do not realize is after 630.31 you have entered to resistance welding section that would not apply to stick, tig or mig welders. It specifically says it is for resistance welders.

Read what I wrote. AFTER 630.31 it is referring to resistance welders specifically. Not that 630 doesn't apply to welders we use at all.

You have lost me? I posted the page on Resistance welding and later Arc welding to show as far as the NEC is concerned a welder is a welder and Article 630 just defines Arc and Resistance welding but then goes on to include Plasma cutting and other processes. So what is your point? When your wiring any welder Article 630 applies.

[Meltedmetal]

I'm not a sparkie but since most modern welders state I(eff), doesn't the first sentence of 630.11 (A) negate all the duty cycle calculations for most modern welders? Or to put it differently hasn't I(eff) already done the duty cycle calculations?