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Thread: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

  1. #51
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltedmetal View Post
    I'm not a sparkie but since most modern welders state I(eff), doesn't the first sentence of 630.11 (A) negate all the duty cycle calculations for most modern welders? Or to put it differently hasn't I(eff) already done the duty cycle calculations?
    Yes, equipment nameplate information and manufacturer's instructions always take precedence when available and this is stated in numerous places in the NEC. Occasionally however we run into circumstances where this information is incorrect or violates certain code rules, two examples I have seen are incorrect wiring instructions for clothes dryers and incorrect grounding instructions for portable generators. In both cases the instructions originated out of the US. However NEC does allow upsizing circuit protection to eliminate tripping from inrush currents as Willie mentioned, in these cases the required overload protection is located at the load end of the circuit. Note that in the case of welding equipment that overload protection can be in the form of duty cycle.
    Last edited by bigb; 12-28-2021 at 09:45 AM.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    NEC 2020: 630.11(B) The ampacity of the supply conductors shall not be less than theI1eff value on the rating plate.
    You are correct.

    There are many situations where this is not enough. Low voltage (below design voltage) will cause higher current draw in inverters & bad performance along with high current in transformer based welders.

    Pretty common on home welders, the service conductors were sized for a house, with garage used for storage of automobiles. If a sub panel is installed in the garage, it likely isn't sized for welder load. Most home welders give no thought to voltage at the welder.
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Yhis is what gets me a bit. Guy buys a modern welder, cost 1000$. Wants to put 4 convenience outlets in his shop and surly there will be 1 or 2 never used once the dust settles. Asks whatt is acceptable to wire it with and even goes to the trouble to point out that running another circuit should the need ever arise is not a problem then the suggestions start coming which include or even ins9ist cause "I did it that way" for lack of better reasoning that he should spend another 1000 ro wire this dinky machine up juist in case he ever wants to hook a monster to that circuit when he could actually wire it code legal and adequate,,, somewhat above, sort of for 150 in wire and if he wants toss another 150 on top of it can make it double good for that machine and legal for most 50A machines that come cord and plug he still isnt right.
    This is kind of amateur advice from professional mechanics to some extent. There seems to be some absolute obsession with V drop, if its not with one machine then we will find one it might. Every time a guy installs a welder outlet doesnt mean it needs to be upgraded back to the poco tranny. They deliver 240 + to the door, lots of these designed to run all the way to 208 and some even 200. Even 10 volts drop wont hurt a thing.
    I understand it a bit, we got a customer doesnt care, doesnt mind the cost of a wire never utilized, gonna pay the bill and a guy wants to sell wire, ok, different story but Bill E Homebob wants to run a 210, comes to get a real opinion and just gets **** thrown against the wall its another matter.
    Seems kind of a waste of training, all lthe years of school, the licences to simply toss a simple idea out every welder outlet needs a 6 wire despite the code saying otherwise, same for the mfgr,,,, to hook a machine that comes with a 14 cord on it.
    Last edited by Sberry; 12-28-2021 at 10:06 AM.

  4. #54
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Yup and its all fine and dandy if Billy Bob wants to pull in #6 wire for a 30 amp load for his home shop. Got news for these guys, welding machines made today or tomorrow are much more efficient than ones made 20 years ago... and that's the trend. Go ahead waste your money, I would rather put that money into more tools or machines for my shop, or guns!

    Running 50 amps on #10 wire or even #12 is not going to burn your house down. Wires are rated on where they are located and the insulation temperature rating. Wires over head or buried underground are rated for more current than wires in a conduit or Romax cable.
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    You have lost me? I posted the page on Resistance welding and later Arc welding to show as far as the NEC is concerned a welder is a welder and Article 630 just defines Arc and Resistance welding but then goes on to include Plasma cutting and other processes. So what is your point? When your wiring any welder Article 630 applies.
    How would anyone not think that Article 630 of the NEC isn't about welders ? I sure didn't need convincing 630 was for and about welding equipment.

    Simply saying the page on resistance welders is not what we use. Then you said what do you think stick, tig and mig is ? Again. First you posted the page on the resistance type then said resistance type is what we use which(stick, mig, tig) is what I thought you might have meant/thought which they aren't. That was my only point.

    The Arc welders appear as though are allowed up to 200% over. Resistance welders can go to 300% of wire ampacity for overcurrent protection. Quite a difference. It makes a difference what kind of welder you are wiring as to what the rules are.

    In hindsight I realize I was wasting my time now.

    I am slowly learning. Read only and just keep to myself in my little pee brain. Wasn't ready to get in a back and forth about it.
    Last edited by danielplace; 12-28-2021 at 02:39 PM.

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    so much needless flexing re the NEC. Miller won't recommend anything in the owners manual that doesn't comply with code. I think it comes down to does the OP want to use the manufacturers recommendation and save money or does he want to spend extra to upgrade the circuit for future equipment acquisitions. Anything else is just fluff. Voltage drop is a non issue in my opinion (and Miller's). From the owner's manual for the MM211

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Nothing starts an argument like a good old "welder outlet/circuit" thread
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

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    Last edited by wmgeorge; 12-28-2021 at 02:31 PM.
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Yup and its all fine and dandy if Billy Bob wants to pull in #6 wire for a 30 amp load for his home shop. Got news for these guys, welding machines made today or tomorrow are much more efficient than ones made 20 years ago... and that's the trend. Go ahead waste your money, I would rather put that money into more tools or machines for my shop, or guns!

    Running 50 amps on #10 wire or even #12 is not going to burn your house down. Wires are rated on where they are located and the insulation temperature rating. Wires over head or buried underground are rated for more current than wires in a conduit or Romax cable.
    Not true about conduit. Ampacity of 90 degree conductors is significantly higher than the 15, 20, & 30 amp breaker limits. This gives a bit of leeway for conduits containing more than three current carrying conductors. Also might help if any portion passes through high ambient temperature. Same is true of NM-B cable & sometimes it is bundled where the same restrictions apply as in conduit.
    Your statement is true of overhead runs in free air.

    When we size conductors, we consider ampacity. I define ampacity as the maximum current without overheating.
    We also should consider voltage loss. Very often, preventing voltage loss will require bigger conductors than ampacity would.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    So my Toyota pickup has always had OEM brand oil, can I switch over to another brand without issues?
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    So my Toyota pickup has always had OEM brand oil, can I switch over to another brand without issues?
    I love it.

    What kind oil is BEST ?

    I saved $50 last year wiring my welder with 18/2. LMAO !!!!

    Happy New Year.
    Last edited by danielplace; 12-28-2021 at 05:03 PM.

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Sorry I was doing a little reloading and cleaning my guns, did I miss anything important...? Nope looks like the same old CRAP. I will be out to the range tomorrow, breaking in that new 1911.
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Unlike oil arguments, where facts are hard to acquire, NEC is there for all to read.
    I believe there is plenty of rules each of us can read in code.
    Code is concerned only with safety, it does NOT get involved with performance.
    None would argue it's better to put undersized injectors in a high performance engine. Yet everyone wants to supply their welder with lamp cord.
    There are lots of varieties of welders out there. Most of them are designed to separate dollars from buyers. When a weldor buyer buys a Chinese welder, finds it won't work, it plugs the next welder into the cheap as possible outlet. NEC does not address this situation. Nor does NEC address the system, only the circuit.

    When I install a circuit for a welder, I look at the facility. Is there a voltage problem here? I may be able to compensate with a robust circuit.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Where did anyo e want to use lamp cord or even a minimum? Its not ho.eow ers who u der wire and do not care about v drop. That should be obvious from these threads and i have never seen a welding. machine underwired. . Never seen one in a garage sag so it hurt it. I might have a different opinion if i had seen it a couple 3 times but never. It probably has happened in some time and place but the reference to 18 wire here says it all.
    Last edited by Sberry; 12-28-2021 at 09:22 PM.

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    I know a farm shop. Runs of overhead cable, many date from 1938, pass overhead from building to building. These are unfused until they reach a building, then pass on to another. Connectors are with old vice grips, bolts & washers, all sorts of makeshift devices. Furthest away is the welding shop. An ancient Marquette tap AC welder is the welder. It doesn't work very well, so they hire somebody with a welder on his truck. The old welder might work better if it had a proper power supply.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    Nothing starts an argument like a good old "welder outlet/circuit" thread
    Just upsize everything to 400V/480V 3-Φ. Then one can use tiny conductors. If my welders could utilize 600V/ 3-Φ I'd use that, but they top out at 575V.
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    I hope by now your electric wiring done.
    What way did you go.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by shelby View Post
    I'm wiring my shop and I want to make sure I'm not messing up since I have very little electrical experience. The only thing I've ever wired was my house(two 225 amp panels) this past summer. Called 8 electricians and couldn't get anyone to do the job(and I'm a home builder). I do prefer to leave electrical work to the professionals where possible.

    I have seen various recommended wire gauges and breaker sizes in my research for running the welder circuits. I decided to call Miller yesterday and the tech I talked to said to use 12 gauge wire and a 30 amp breaker. That sounds awful small to me.

    Do any of y'all have recommendations on wire/breaker size that you have used?

    I don't want to use too big of a breaker but I wouldn't mind over sizing the wire to mitigate voltage drop. I'll probably have a 100' run, a couple 60' runs and a 20' run.

    Thanks

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    LOL... I think he gave up on getting an answer out of this thread and hired an electrician.
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    Where did anyo e want to use lamp cord or even a minimum? Its not ho.eow ers who u der wire and do not care about v drop. That should be obvious from these threads and i have never seen a welding. machine underwired. . Never seen one in a garage sag so it hurt it. I might have a different opinion if i had seen it a couple 3 times but never. It probably has happened in some time and place but the reference to 18 wire here says it all.
    As electricians we do see a lot of unbelievable stuff like home additions wired with chopped up pieces of extension cords wired to receptacles screwed into wood paneling with no boxes etc. One of the craziest I ever saw was an outdoor building with a light, an outlet and a table saw, the building was fed from about 50 feet away by tapping into an abandoned pool service with 6 conductor direct bury telephone line, 3 wires for hot, 3 wires for neutral, no ground. The phone wire was threaded through a chain link fence over to the building housing the table saw. Apparently worked for years this way, we got called out when it failed, it had melted into the chain link fence and shorted.
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  23. #70
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    As electricians we do see a lot of unbelievable stuff like home additions wired with chopped up pieces of extension cords wired to receptacles screwed into wood paneling with no boxes etc. One of the craziest I ever saw was an outdoor building with a light, an outlet and a table saw, the building was fed from about 50 feet away by tapping into an abandoned pool service with 6 conductor direct bury telephone line, 3 wires for hot, 3 wires for neutral, no ground. The phone wire was threaded through a chain link fence over to the building housing the table saw. Apparently worked for years this way, we got called out when it failed, it had melted into the chain link fence and shorted.
    My personal worst was a knob & tube house, Colt Noarc 4+2 circuit fuse panel. Three fuses had pennies behind them, all were 30 amp time delay, supplying #14.
    A pendant light bulb socket in an unused bedroom had a two prong adapter between bulb & socket. 75' of 18/2 lamp cord were shut in the window, running to a little outbuilding with a Sears Craftsman table saw. Discovering the pennies behind the fuses, I removed them & replaced with 15 amp single element Edison fuses. The wife was pleased, husband not home. He called that night furious with me. "You fuc&ed up my table saw.....it worked fine before you were here."
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    My last house had some lamp cord wiring. 60 amp fuse
    panel was full so someone added a lamp socket and fuse
    to create another circuit. It was ok though because
    they nailed sheet metal to joists over panel area for fire
    prevention.�� Oddly enough, previous owner worked for
    Connecticut Light and Power.
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I know a farm shop. Runs of overhead cable, many date from 1938, pass overhead from building to building. These are unfused until they reach a building, then pass on to another. Connectors are with old vice grips, bolts & washers, all sorts of makeshift devices. Furthest away is the welding shop. An ancient Marquette tap AC welder is the welder. It doesn't work very well, so they hire somebody with a welder on his truck. The old welder might work better if it had a proper power supply.
    Sure, i have seen some pitiful old and shabby setups. Old fuse service really. My bud had one a 60and they had all electric, got a new microwave and poof. Irony is after we upgrade they come thru with gas so we have upgrade with less load than when we started.

  27. #73
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    These are different issues than wiring up a couple welder outlets on a new build. The service shouldnt enen been on in the last 2 houses i rewired. 2 crappy circuits by a thread some kt, 30A fuses, some more, its endless.
    The op in this thread sounds conscientious, new build, is gonna do what it takes, called the mfg, asked on forum. He wants to be practical and didnt come aski g if he could use lamp cord. Miller said 12/30 which would be legal and adequate with either method and even run fine from a cord.

  28. #74
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    These are different issues than wiring up a couple welder outlets on a new build. The service shouldnt enen been on in the last 2 houses i rewired. 2 crappy circuits by a thread some kt, 30A fuses, some more, its endless.
    The op in this thread sounds conscientious, new build, is gonna do what it takes, called the mfg, asked on forum. He wants to be practical and didnt come aski g if he could use lamp cord. Miller said 12/30 which would be legal and adequate with either method and even run fine from a cord.

  29. #75
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    Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.

    That works too.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    LOL... I think he gave up on getting an answer out of this thread and hired an electrician.

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