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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
bigb
Show mw where it says this in the code and does not include exceptions. In the USA. I'll save you a lot of time, you won't find it. I've read and studied the code, all of it. Your statement is wrong.
Really drive them insane, 14 wire allowed on 30 curcuit.
Wouldnt matter how many times a month it was used either.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
I'm not an electrician but I've been around plenty of machines and electrical services, both temporary and permanent. #2 ( or #4 for that matter) is absolutely insane for a 300 amp machine. The biggest weak link in welder circuits is the 6-50 receptacle and/ or plug.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
This one really blew up.
Glad you all live in wonderland, FOR HIS APPLICATION:
Wire the circuit for the welder: perfectly legal and safe to use stated thickness and length as manual suggests for this welder only.
wire the circuit for whatever is plugged into it: 50 or 60 amp breaker with 6 awg with nema 6-50 ends.
Not much else.
Last edited by SlowBlues; 01-02-2022 at 01:02 PM.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Well of course... but at which speed of light?
250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC Stick
F-225 amp Forney AC Stick
230 amp Sears AC Stick
Lincoln 180C MIG
Vevor MIG 200A
Victor Medalist 350 O/A
Vevor Cut 50 Plasma
Les
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Some 300 call for number 2. Lots of them get run on lot less. We have seen dialarcs on dryer circuits. Even some give out atta boys for that, not a single word thai it might not be correct. Its not usually a bad thing to over wire several times but insistance that its the only way to do it is not always correct.
I am with the gang that thinks the minimum on these small machines is not worth the effort when a size up is not a big deal and today can often come off the same spools of wire the rest of the place does.
I have ran a 300 synch a bit on a 6/60. Run it long enough above 200 and it will trip. But for home Diy the legal standards for these bigger machines well adequate . So few in that world are ever ran wide open. So few people have hours of 1/2 aluminum.
Last edited by Sberry; 01-02-2022 at 01:41 PM.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
M J D
I'm not an electrician but I've been around plenty of machines and electrical services, both temporary and permanent. #2 ( or #4 for that matter) is absolutely insane for a 300 amp machine. The biggest weak link in welder circuits is the 6-50 receptacle and/ or plug.
Yes the #6-50 amp receptacle is the point it fails, but the #6 wires get hot. You can make the 50 amp receptacles last a lot longer with a piece of #2 wire. My welder goes to 410 amps I never use it in that range. I do use it up to about 275 amps and I often weld rather continuously when I weld, it is designed for continuous use at that amperage. Because I was going through the #6-50 amp plugs, I started wiring into the panel, and that is a pain in the neck when the fire marshal comes. So I got a 100 amp plug for it and never had another problem with it. It also draws less amperage through the 100 amp plug than the 50 amp plug.
The main reason I will never ever use wire that has a breaker larger than the wires rating, is because I have seen multiple AC units burn wires to the compressors and not take out the breakers. It turned the machine to garbage. The unit would start after the low pressure switch would cut back in and it melted and burned the wire insulation in the unit. Now engineering wise because the length of the wire was ten feet, #4 should have been fine but cycle the machine twice a minute and you get meltdown.
Now you apply that to your welder and one hot day the power company sends you 217 instead of 240 and you are drawing over a hundred amps. And your wire turns to a crisp baked plastic substance.
Some guys here are using a MIG machine that tends to draw slightly differently than a Straight Polarity TIG machine, because the heat is coming from the cathode ray created from the wire. But if you get a reading of 50 amps, then you have to step up to #4 and if that machine was outputting 200 amps and drawing 50 then if you output 280 amps then you will draw 70. There is a rule that branch circuit wiring can only be designed to carry 80 percent of the rating of the wire. So you need a #2
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
Sberry
Some 300 call for number 2. Lots of them get run on lot less. We have seen dialarcs on dryer circuits. Even some give out atta boys for that, not a single word thai it might not be correct. Its not usually a bad thing to over wire several times but insistance that its the only way to do it is not always correct.
I am with the gang that thinks the minimum on these small machines is not worth the effort when a size up is not a big deal and today can often come off the same spools of wire the rest of the place does.
I have ran a 300 synch a bit on a 6/60. Run it long enough above 200 and it will trip. But for home Diy the legal standards for these bigger machines well adequate . So few in that world are ever ran wide open. So few people have hours of 1/2 aluminum.
If you ever run it again, on a #6 let it get warm and then check the amperage, you will be drawing 145 amps. The boss was mad.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
William McCormick
If you ever run it again, on a #6 let it get warm and then check the amperage, you will be drawing 145 amps. The boss was mad.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
I did weld some 5/8 thick aluminum. 280 square wave wasn't enough. I added helium to the gas, SWEET! Had I done it with the Dialarc I'd have been at 310 amps. Nameplate said that was 105 amp at 230 Volt supply. I never checked voltage when maxed out, but I bet it was well below 230. That was on #4 copper THHN. Present Dynasty 280DX is less thirsty, but #4 remains.
The big Lincoln Idealarc 300 stick welder is on #1 aluminum. One day I'll upgrade the power to the garage, but conduit is only 1-1/2"
An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
Willie B
I did weld some 5/8 thick aluminum. 280 square wave wasn't enough. I added helium to the gas, SWEET! Had I done it with the Dialarc I'd have been at 310 amps. Nameplate said that was 105 amp at 230 Volt supply. I never checked voltage when maxed out, but I bet it was well below 230. That was on #4 copper THHN. Present Dynasty 280DX is less thirsty, but #4 remains.
The big Lincoln Idealarc 300 stick welder is on #1 aluminum. One day I'll upgrade the power to the garage, but conduit is only 1-1/2"
You have to check the amperage, you will soil yourself if there is any significant voltage drop. The boss said “Are you kidding me", as he is reading the amp probe. I was welding large aluminum stairs together and I had been at it for a week, haha he estimated that was about four hundred bucks instead of two hundred bucks.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
shelby
LMAO.
I'm kicking around the idea of buying a Hobart ironman 240 instead of the MM211. It's a couple hundred cheaper than the 211(although the wiring will make that about even). Hobart says use a 50 amp breaker and an 8/2. Any concern with voltage drop on a 90' run from the panel?
The reason I'm concerned with voltage drop is that my small Dewalt compressor sounds different(slower) when using it on a 100' drop cord and my electric smoker doesn't heat up when using a 100' drop cord. I assume that's from voltage drop.
I swear, at this point you are just trying to rile people up. In answer to your question...RTFM! It clearly states that you are OK up to 105 feet of #8 conductor. Who knows better than the manufacturer what voltage drop will do to their machine? SMH...
Miller Multimatic 255
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Ya, the guy runninga 211 is going to run 100+ amps. What this is,,,, if you cant make sense of something one way then try it another. Like they say, first bull****ter doesnt stand a chance. I prolly could go on about how the boss was a moron but i swooped in to save the day. Cant follow a simple instruction, seems kind of fukkin obvious the 50 A recept isnt designed for 100A continious load but maybe not? So you wire it wrong and it doesnt work,,,, big surprise.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
So,, let me get this logic. You wire yours wrong with the wrong recept, over heat it and it fails. This means if he wires his correctly and runs it like he is sposed to his will fail , aint no 211 ever burned up a 50A recept
Just my own experience, career welder. Have never burned up a 50 outlet or wire going to it. Got to wonder how one guy never and the next does it regular? This would be a hint that one guy didnt know wtf he was doing.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Gotta love it, guy puts a 100A+ load on a 50A outlet and runs it way past the duty, burns it up and we are stupid?
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
Louie1961
I swear, at this point you are just trying to rile people up. In answer to your question...RTFM! It clearly states that you are OK up to 105 feet of #8 conductor. Who knows better than the manufacturer what voltage drop will do to their machine? SMH...
Louie;
The manufacturer puts the burden on others to ensure there is 240 Volts available at the breaker panel. They concern themselves with ampacity in the circuit only. A common home welder will have 200 or more feet from the transformer to an A pole, another 150 feet if overhead service, up to 625' if underground. Might be a sub panel inside the house, then a 100' run to the garage. Manufacturers don't factor that.
Most inverters do fine on low voltage. If it is intended for 230 volts 40 amps input. It still does OK at 190 volts, but needs near 50 Amps to do it. Transformers do not react as favorably. A 60 amp welder easily spikes to 100 amp draw at that voltage. Not much coming out, much of that energy becomes internal heat. It ain't working, you probably won't get to duty cycle. It likely won't melt the welder, but you won't like it, a miserable experience.
An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
Willie B
Louie;
The manufacturer puts the burden on others to ensure there is 240 Volts available at the breaker panel. They concern themselves with ampacity in the circuit only. A common home welder will have 200 or more feet from the transformer to an A pole, another 150 feet if overhead service, up to 625' if underground. Might be a sub panel inside the house, then a 100' run to the garage. Manufacturers don't factor that.
Most inverters do fine on low voltage. If it is intended for 230 volts 40 amps input. It still does OK at 190 volts, but needs near 50 Amps to do it. Transformers do not react as favorably. A 60 amp welder easily spikes to 100 amp draw at that voltage. Not much coming out, much of that energy becomes internal heat. It ain't working, you probably won't get to duty cycle. It likely won't melt the welder, but you won't like it, a miserable experience.
I would disagree on the inverter thing. My Miller xmt304 doesn't like 200 volt single phase, which I believe is refered to as 208 volt. Machine would throw a low voltage error code. Newer lower priced machine may be fine on lower voltage though
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
Willie B
Louie;
The manufacturer puts the burden on others to ensure there is 240 Volts available at the breaker panel. They concern themselves with ampacity in the circuit only. A common home welder will have 200 or more feet from the transformer to an A pole, another 150 feet if overhead service, up to 625' if underground. Might be a sub panel inside the house, then a 100' run to the garage. Manufacturers don't factor that.
Most inverters do fine on low voltage. If it is intended for 230 volts 40 amps input. It still does OK at 190 volts, but needs near 50 Amps to do it. Transformers do not react as favorably. A 60 amp welder easily spikes to 100 amp draw at that voltage. Not much coming out, much of that energy becomes internal heat. It ain't working, you probably won't get to duty cycle. It likely won't melt the welder, but you won't like it, a miserable experience.
This would imply that all these services are sub standard which is not the case. I tested one a while back, was a long way with several taps to houses. I was about sure it had a problem. 130A on a 100 service with 1v drop. They are required to bring 240 to the customer at service at ratedl load. I dont need to calculate back to the tranny every gime i add an outlet, its gonna be there.
Where you li e that the ser ice is so pitiful? How come one guy has all these issues and the next none? Be a different and obvious situation if we were talking about hooking 100 to an old 60A fuse service.
We could keep putting might and maybe and find some numbers from where i am not sure but my 2 services here 75 ft from a tranny with one on 500 mcm. My service is 245 and 244 yanking 200 on it which would never happen other than load test.
Last edited by Sberry; 01-02-2022 at 09:46 PM.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
I bet i have ran 2 dozen buzzers over the early years including several from old 60 service. Never noticed a problem with one, not sometimes or once in a while but never as best i can recall. The op is a guy with a new build, really doubt it will be a factor with a 211 or even a 240 which but for duty cycle is a similar load provided they run it wide open. Real load 40A with 035 znd maybe a pinch over with 045.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Might wire the outlet with number 8 but dont use 8 as the calc all the way back to the tranny,
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
I harp on this because the adsumption that the breaker is there for the thermal which is not so basically except for general use circuits with multiple outlets.
Cloths dryers are sort ofvyhis way but an electric range is similar to a welder in some respects but,,, the range is simply a bunch of elements connected by 12 wire to a 6 cord. Total of the elements is the thermal protection, all together wont overheat the cord, breaker large enough to let the current pass but small enough to provide short circuit for the internal wire with the additional fuse for a clock if it has one.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
This seems to be a difficult concept, much/most protection designed this way ,,, same as a common light fixture. Edison base restricts the lamp size, the 16 wire suffecient to short 20A. Lots of wire in a home connected in appliances require the breaker for fault. Even a common power strip designed this way. The little button is thermal, still needs the magnetic of the breaker.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
Sberry
900 units you should be able to retire.
I am retired.
I was retiring in 2007 but then 2008 happened.
I had to build back better.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
Willie B
I do not understand. I love big jobs. Only time I get frightened, is when I PAY. Someone is clever & figures it into the transaction that much of the service I provide is free.
I think the issue is that these guys can go knock out smaller jobs, get in and out and make more money. Other than out main electrician, the rest of the guys are one and two man shows.
One guy could rough one of our spec houses(1,500-2,300 square feet) in a day.
Our main electrical contractor would send out either two employees or a 1 man sub contractor. The 1 man sub could do the same amount of work as a 2 man employee crew.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
Originally Posted by
farmersammm
I wired it.
I always said I'd never do electrical work, but they forced my hand. It was a very difficult house to wire. I had to "inch worm" the wire to get it to where it needed to be. No open runs just to pull wire.
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Re: Question on wiring shop for a Millermatic 211.
I understand. I slid thru, found out later i need to work again, was coasting.