40Ton Hydraulic Press Brake

[Meltedmetal]

This was a commercially available one, however they took a different approach. I can’t afford the space to have a 15” cylinder overhang it. And that also requires substantial support for that cylinder attachment to not blow off the side.

Attachment 1735222

I don't see any reason you couldn't redesign the levers to mount the cylinder vertically down the side of that press to make it narrower overall if needed. It might not be as efficient use of plate as the design shown but it is certainly possible..

[BrooklynBravest]

I don't see any reason you couldn't redesign the levers to mount the cylinder vertically down the side of that press to make it narrower overall if needed. It might not be as efficient use of plate as the design shown but it is certainly possible..

I absolutely could, and have seen builds in this manner but I don't want the side profile to be wider. If you saw where I was putting this you'd understand.

Its already far bigger than I have any business making for my space.

But my 19" swag is such a weird size. I can't stand it so Im planning for a future larger space and dealing with the consequences for now.





Got excited and instead of doing paying work made one linkage with the only piece of 1/2" i had on hand. Rest comes monday.

Used the compass to ensure I was center on either side because I had no great way to accurately layout the holes. Annular cutter to ensure a perfect 1" fit.

Actually feel a lot more confident in this thing to stand up to the pressure once I am holding one of these in my hand. Its pretty damn beefy.

Oh and because someone always asks, the carbide tipped compass is actually a gem from harbor freight. Amazing purchase.

I was thinking for the pins, at the spots where they contact the links, to have some shallow grooves turned onto the pin to retain a layer of grease?

[farmersammm]

For S&G's measure the ID on the annular cutter holes. They generally wind up a bit oversized due to drill/mill runout. Either that, or mic the DOM OD, it's not unusual to see DOM +/- a few thou.

[farmersammm]

Personally.............I wouldn't modify your pins. Just use plain round stock without doing any grooves. The grooves will cause wear.

There's two ways to get grease to a pin. One way is through the bore, with a fitting somewhere on the outside of the bore. Another way is to center drill the pin, cross drill it for the gallery, then put your grease fitting on the end of the pin. I prefer not to drill the pin, but in some cases you have no choice when there's no access to the bushing for a grease fitting.

[BrooklynBravest]

For S&G's measure the ID on the annular cutter holes. They generally wind up a bit oversized due to drill/mill runout. Either that, or mic the DOM OD, it's not unusual to see DOM +/- a few thou.

I was actually banking on that. I can run a boring head but it’s a hassle, I was worried I’d need to buy a slightly over 1” reamer for the pins to fit. So hopefully we’re good to go.


Where does the grease come out of in that scenario? I think drilling through the pin will obviously reduce strength.


Not sure what to use for the pins either, could make them cold rolled 1018, 4140 (not treated) or stainless.

[farmersammm]

1144 Stressproof makes nice pins. Extremely strong. And!! You don't have to heat treat this grade of steel to bring it up to strength. IIRC, 4140 has to be heat treated to get it stronger than the annealed/soft state. http://www.niagaralasalle.com/product-stressproof.html Although Niagra developed it,, it's now sold as a generic 1144 by other producers. Machines like a dream.........better than 1018.

1018 would actually be strong enough in the right size. Shear is around 50Ksi on 1018.

A drilled pin has a cross hole that allows the grease to come out in the middle of the pin. If you have a 1" bushing, you'd drill deep enough in the end to reach the middle of your bushing, then drill a cross hole to allow the grease to flow out in the middle of the bushing. It does weaken the pin a bit, so I understand your concern.

[Boostinjdm]

Yep, I'd use 1144. That is my go to pin material. It can be heat treated if you need it harder, but you have to make sure to draw it back some as it can be very brittle if you don't. IIRC 1" stressproof will measure .995" right off the rack.

[BrooklynBravest]

God dammit i just ordered the 4140 I’ll cancel it lol


Edit: ordered 1144, $10 cheaper actually.

Website says annealed 4140 is tensile strength 90k

1144 is 115k


4140 treated is 187k. So i guess it only shines when treated.

[acourtjester]

Do you know you can write a G-code to center punch CNC plasma parts before cutting them, positioned in the DXF file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jdk...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V7h...ew?usp=sharing

[BrooklynBravest]

Do you know you can write a G-code to center punch CNC plasma parts before cutting them, positioned in the DXF file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jdk...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V7h...ew?usp=sharing

Yah i usually do that, but i was worried the hole wouldn’t be spot on. Because it usually pierces an elongated hole of sorts however the slag blows out. And then the annular cutter wouldn’t run true.

Might be because i only have a 45 amp cutter, it struggles more to punch a hole in 1/2”


Ivw been considering buying a new powermax 65 but i only have a 40 amp breaker is skeptical if I can run it.

[acourtjester]

could you get 3 PH less power, they come setup for both.
Here is 1 PH

[BrooklynBravest]

could you get 3 PH less power, they come setup for both.
Here is 1 PH

Nope only single phase.

[BrooklynBravest]

Finished the cylinder mounting. The company who makes the cylinder, Magister, actually had a cad model of the 10” cylinder available so assuming it’s an accurate model everything should be spot on to fit.
The actual link for the cylinder back end will probably be 2 pieces of 1/2” beveled and welded together because I can’t cut 1”

Also added some 3” X 1/4” discs around the pivot pin slots on the side walls. Not sure if it’s needed but i figure it should help distribute the load a bit there on the 1/2 plates. Should I do it inside and out so it’s a full 1” cross section?

[Munkul]

So what design tonnage is it going to be now then? Since it definitely won't be 40t.

[BrooklynBravest]

So what design tonnage is it going to be now then? Since it definitely won't be 40t.

It should be 40. Why won’t it be?

By 10” cylinder I meant stroke. 4x10.

[SweetMK]

It should be 40. Why won’t it be?

By 10” cylinder I meant stroke. 4x10.

I meant to mention this earlier, but,, got busy,, but,,
when the linkage is EXACTLY 90 degrees to the cylinder, you will get max force,

As the "L" shaped part rotates away from 90 degrees, a component of the force is pushing on your press,,, BUT,,
another component of the force is simply trying to bend the pivot pin.

If there were no side force on the pin, it would not be needed, the L shaped arm would simply rotate,,
THAT does not occur, so that means there is wasted forces,,

This is explained at:

http://zonalandeducation.com/mstm/ph...omponents.html

The example at the bottom of the page shows that if the force is 16.6 (units is not important,, TONS, Newtons,, bones,, anchors,, whatever,,)

If the force is acting at an angle of 32.7 degrees, the force acting is only 14.

So change this to 40 tons , and the arm is rotated to an angle of 32.7 degrees, you only get 33.73 tons..

You will see this all the time in tractor front end loaders,
the loader will have enough force to get a load off the ground, but, as the arm rotates, the loader can no longer lift the load, it just stops.

The cylinder did not get weaker as the load is raised, the pressure of the hydraulic system did not go down,
the force component is now trying to tear apart the loader, rather than lift the load as the arms go to a certain height.

All of this said,, if you set the height of the die to the wrong spot,
EXACTLY when you need the MAXIMUM force (that would be at the point that the die is almost fully closed) ,
your tonnage will be at a MINIMUM!!


Many times you will see a mechanical press that uses a "TOGGLE" linkage,
a toggle linkage will result in VERY high tonnage at the very end of the travel,, exactly where the tonnage is needed,,

That toggle can be actuated by a cylinder, or a flywheel actuated crank, whatever.

I always wanted to build a toggle wood splitter,, but, I never have had a need for a wood splitter, in the last 20 years,,

[BrooklynBravest]

I meant to mention this earlier, but,, got busy,, but,,
when the linkage is EXACTLY 90 degrees to the cylinder, you will get max force,

As the "L" shaped part rotates away from 90 degrees, a component of the force is pushing on your press,,, BUT,,
another component of the force is simply trying to bend the pivot pin.

If there were no side force on the pin, it would not be needed, the L shaped arm would simply rotate,,
THAT does not occur, so that means there is wasted forces,,

This is explained at:

http://zonalandeducation.com/mstm/ph...omponents.html

The example at the bottom of the page shows that if the force is 16.6 (units is not important,, TONS, Newtons,, bones,, anchors,, whatever,,)

If the force is acting at an angle of 32.7 degrees, the force acting is only 14.

So change this to 40 tons , and the arm is rotated to an angle of 32.7 degrees, you only get 33.73 tons..

You will see this all the time in tractor front end loaders,
the loader will have enough force to get a load off the ground, but, as the arm rotates, the loader can no longer lift the load, it just stops.

The cylinder did not get weaker as the load is raised, the pressure of the hydraulic system did not go down,
the force component is now trying to tear apart the loader, rather than lift the load as the arms go to a certain height.

All of this said,, if you set the height of the die to the wrong spot,
EXACTLY when you need the MAXIMUM force (that would be at the point that the die is almost fully closed) ,
your tonnage will be at a MINIMUM!!


Many times you will see a mechanical press that uses a "TOGGLE" linkage,
a toggle linkage will result in VERY high tonnage at the very end of the travel,, exactly where the tonnage is needed,,

That toggle can be actuated by a cylinder, or a flywheel actuated crank, whatever.

I always wanted to build a toggle wood splitter,, but, I never have had a need for a wood splitter, in the last 20 years,,

Truthfully it’s got way more force than I need regardless.

But where is the hardest part of a bend, the initial break from flat, or the final push to 90 degrees?

I could technically reduce the width of the Cam pieces as well, and increase mechanical advantage but this will in turn reduce my stroke which is only 4” as is.

[M J D]

Truthfully it’s got way more force than I need regardless.

But where is the hardest part of a bend, the initial break from flat, or the final push to 90 degrees?

Final amount is the most difficult as the material is making the most contact with the dies. Same reason why thicker material needs a larger die opening to achieve the same bend angle as thinner material.

[BrooklynBravest]

I did a quick mockup of a shorter cam, for more advantage.

it makes that 90 degree range incredibly narrow.

I am debating though if the bed should be adjustable, so it would be bolted in place with a few options for height. Which would require a lower cross member welded in for overall stability.

[farmersammm]

I meant to mention this earlier, but,, got busy,, but,,
when the linkage is EXACTLY 90 degrees to the cylinder, you will get max force,

As the "L" shaped part rotates away from 90 degrees, a component of the force is pushing on your press,,, BUT,,
another component of the force is simply trying to bend the pivot pin.

If there were no side force on the pin, it would not be needed, the L shaped arm would simply rotate,,
THAT does not occur, so that means there is wasted forces,,

This is explained at:

http://zonalandeducation.com/mstm/ph...omponents.html

The example at the bottom of the page shows that if the force is 16.6 (units is not important,, TONS, Newtons,, bones,, anchors,, whatever,,)

If the force is acting at an angle of 32.7 degrees, the force acting is only 14.

So change this to 40 tons , and the arm is rotated to an angle of 32.7 degrees, you only get 33.73 tons..

You will see this all the time in tractor front end loaders,
the loader will have enough force to get a load off the ground, but, as the arm rotates, the loader can no longer lift the load, it just stops.

The cylinder did not get weaker as the load is raised, the pressure of the hydraulic system did not go down,
the force component is now trying to tear apart the loader, rather than lift the load as the arms go to a certain height.

All of this said,, if you set the height of the die to the wrong spot,
EXACTLY when you need the MAXIMUM force (that would be at the point that the die is almost fully closed) ,
your tonnage will be at a MINIMUM!!


Many times you will see a mechanical press that uses a "TOGGLE" linkage,
a toggle linkage will result in VERY high tonnage at the very end of the travel,, exactly where the tonnage is needed,,

That toggle can be actuated by a cylinder, or a flywheel actuated crank, whatever.

I always wanted to build a toggle wood splitter,, but, I never have had a need for a wood splitter, in the last 20 years,,

You're spot on when it comes to vector forces.

Sorry about the weird picture angle, I put this together about 5yrs ago, and didn't care to share the build. It was the only way to isolate the cylinder, and mounts, from the rest of the machine.

Anyways, in this instance......................7500lbs of input force yielded 800lbs of useable force throughout the entire arc of travel. This was anticipated due to the geometry of the assembly. Vector calculations verified what I'd anticipated, and told me that the end yield was acceptable for what the machine is intended to do.

Because the cylinder is very close to a bind, it made the whole design a really fun challenge to obtain the range of motion required. The cylinder is run to complete stall as a regular matter of operation, hence the stout mounting eyes. That 7500lbs of force is still there, although the actual work it performs is much less. The machine has to be designed to resist that 7500# on a regular basis. We use the daylights out of the thing, and it's proved to be a pretty good design.

I hope the OP doesn't mind the slight tangent.

[BrooklynBravest]

You're spot on when it comes to vector forces.

Sorry about the weird picture angle, I put this together about 5yrs ago, and didn't care to share the build.

Anyways, in this instance......................7500lbs of input force yielded 800lbs of useable force throughout the entire arc of travel. This was anticipated due to the geometry of the assembly. Vector calculations verified what I'd anticipated, and told me that the end yield was acceptable for what the machine is intended to do.

Because the cylinder is very close to a bind, it made the whole design a really fun challenge to obtain the range of motion required. The cylinder is run to complete stall as a regular matter of operation, hence the stout mounting eyes. That 7500lbs of force is still there, although the actual work it performs is much less. The machine has to be designed to resist that 7500# on a regular basis. We use the daylights out of the thing, and it's proved to be a pretty good design.

I hope the OP doesn't mind the slight tangent.

I am always interested in learning!

That picture really displays the exceptional power of hydraulics. Imagine trying to lift something with an outstretched arm like that. You'd barely do it.

[Munkul]

It should be 40. Why won’t it be?

By 10” cylinder I meant stroke. 4x10.

Ok fair enough, with a 4" cylinder... just re ran the numbers and looks like around 110 bar you'll need, not too shabby

[farmersammm]

Ok fair enough, with a 4" cylinder... just re ran the numbers and looks like around 110 bar you'll need, not too shabby

Y'all must use some interesting hydraulic fluid over there

[BrooklynBravest]

Ok fair enough, with a 4" cylinder... just re ran the numbers and looks like around 110 bar you'll need, not too shabby

Apologies, what do I need 110 bar for? That’s only 1595 psi? I’m running up to 2950 psi.

Side Note, do I need a replaceable wear plate in between the ram and legs it rides against or
Will maintaining a layer of grease be enough? I don’t know if it’s gonna just glide on it or really scrape it.

Talking in the middle between the yellow bars holding the ram laterally.

[SweetMK]

Side Note, do I need a replaceable wear plate in between the ram and legs it rides against or
Will maintaining a layer of grease be enough? I don’t know if it’s gonna just glide on it or really scrape it.

Talking in the middle between the yellow bars holding the ram laterally.

The same force vectors come into play at that location,, as discussed earlier,

if the die is not perfectly centered, there will be a force component pushing the red part of the press against the yellow part.

How much force will that vector be?? That will be determined by how far off center the punch and die are set.
If all things are PERFECTLY centered, the yellow bars can be removed, as there will be no force vector towards the front, or rear.

Some dies, such as the ones for forming narrow channel boxes, can purposely have the punch and die moved away from center.
Typically, that type of tooling is only used on thin or narrow material compared to "normal" bending.

You asked where the force will be the greatest during a bend, at the start, or as the part approaches the final angle.
The force will be the greatest as the part approaches completion of the angle desired.

This can be demonstrated by putting a piece of steel (that you can bend to start with) in a vise.
I could easily start bending a piece of 3/8"X2"X48" long steel bar, so that is my example.

Clamp the bar in a vise, start bending, as you bend it, you will notice the resistance increase.
There is almost zero chance that you will get it to 90 degrees without some sort of aid, (heat or leverage, or BIG muscles!!)

This is mainly because the steel is work hardening, as the bend progresses,,
The crystalline structure of the steel is developing forces at the joints in the material,
The material is acting like it is thicker as the bend progresses, half way through the bend, the bar has the strength of a 1/2"X2"X48" steel bar.
You need more force to progress

As your press progresses, the tonnage required will go up.

The part can be heated to a temperature that will release the developed stress, (annealing) then the part becomes some what easier to bend.
You never get back to the initial easy point with simple annealing, because, as you bend, the structure of the steel fractures the crystals.
(To get fully back to the easy to bend part, the annealing must be held at temp long enough for the crystals to "grow" in size)

Instead of attempting to slide huge crystals against each other, you are attempting to slide MANY more small crystals against each other.
The "new" higher number of crystals,,, OOPS.. divert your applied stress into the new force vectors,, distributing your effort.
The new effort required skyrockets the force required to either plastically, or elastically deform the part.

This is the EXACT reason that new trucks come with a warning,, DO NOT WELD THE FRAME OF THE TRUCK.
To achieve mandated fuel mileage, the truck frame must be lighter, so great stresses are imparted into the frame while manufacturing the frame shape.
If you weld, you reduce the stress because the welding heat is enough to anneal the steel, you weaken the frame.

If you want to weld, you need to do what the Pakistanis' do on the YouTube videos,,
they "double" the frame,, thereby obtaining greater frame strength, while sacrificing the fuel mileage because of the extra frame weight being carried.

OK, back to the press design,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Where the yellow bars are, some presses use bearings, so that the side forces are rolling on bearings,
rather than trying to "gall" two pieces of steel.

If you want "sliding" the materials should be dissimilar,, to resist the materials desire to gall.
one part steel, the other part brass,, ETC,,
Steel rubbing against steel, especially similar alloy steel, is the worst case for galling.