I Was In A Friends Shop And Saw These

[camfab]

I was in friends shop to pickup some stainless steel pipes he notched for me. He has an actual notching machine. I saw these tables and had to get a picture, they are cool. They are from Germany. Very solid tables.

Attachment 1737078

Sincerely,

William McCormick

I've got one as well, to each his own, best investment I ever made with respect to fixturing and fabrication.

[BillE.Dee]

I wanted a Siegmund also. Thought I would marry a rich heiress or similar. How difficult could that be??

Don’t ask me how that worked out….

found my present wife at a party. She tole me her dad worked at a large company in construction. I THOUGHT she said he owned the company.

[Lis2323]

found my present wife at a party. She tole me her dad worked at a large company in construction. I THOUGHT she said he owned the company.

I've made my share of mistakes from
attending parties also. Over the years I've narrowed it down to three common factors: me, alcohol and females.


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[N55_6MT]

What is it we are building to certified level of flatness? Maybe its so all the crap sitting on them doesnt roll off?
Yes, good to aspire then, ok to want too.
I worked around at one point. I probably had 50 jobs and worked in dozens of shops. Worked on a lot of benches, have built a bunch not counting 200+ I built for a reman factory. I have never went out and said,,, wish I had a bunch of precision holes drilled 50MM apart and its a rare day I need for then a few inches of a flat spot. Got 3 holes I could fill in now that havnt been used since the one time when I first set it up and didnt have a second bench. Got 2 I use on occasion. I is for a tire jig and nothing to do with welding.
Its like getting precision mictometers to build a wood stove. They are nice to have, its great they can measure a hair but the wood stove wont know.

Understand that welding and fabrication extend into plenty of precision industries. Aerospace and high tech often have weldments that join into machined or other true surfaces, so it's quite important that the part you're welding has a true surface to reference during fabrication. UHV tubing and piping in the semiconductor world often needs multiple fittings basically perfectly coplanar and perpendicular or the stuff won't seal. Leaks that allow a few helium atoms past due to a metal-on-metal seal being slightly misaligned are detectable in these industries.

Beyond just being flat, there are speed advantages to fixturing tables. Obviously here in imperial dominated land, a hole every 50mm doesn't make a ton of sense, but if you're fabricating tube frames and the CL of all of the major dimensions land on 50mm nominals like most metric designs do, then dropping in a bunch of vee-blocks into those holes is a quick way to make sure that your frame is aligned true during tack welding. They can make your work wicked fast and easy if your customers need flat, square, and true products.

[bassboy1]

What is it we are building to certified level of flatness? Maybe its so all the crap sitting on them doesnt roll off?
Yes, good to aspire then, ok to want too.
I worked around at one point. I probably had 50 jobs and worked in dozens of shops. Worked on a lot of benches, have built a bunch not counting 200+ I built for a reman factory. I have never went out and said,,, wish I had a bunch of precision holes drilled 50MM apart and its a rare day I need for then a few inches of a flat spot. Got 3 holes I could fill in now that havnt been used since the one time when I first set it up and didnt have a second bench. Got 2 I use on occasion. I is for a tire jig and nothing to do with welding.
Its like getting precision mictometers to build a wood stove. They are nice to have, its great they can measure a hair but the wood stove wont know.

You're letting small mind mentality cloud your perspective.

You're seeing 'flat' and only relating that to part flatness, without seeing where it comes into play with the additional fixtures. No, we don't need that level of flatness to make sure a mounting pad on the bottom of something is flat to within .004, but we do need that level of flatness to ensure that when you bolt the 48" tall riser block to the table, that it is truly square to the table, otherwise the small variations at table level turn into 3/16" off at the top.

Likewise, you see 50 mm hole spacing (or 2" spacing - Siegmund makes both their system 16 and system 28" tables in imperial - mine are imperial), and are only thinking about sticking clamps in places, and not seeing the value in having stops at even and accurate locations. If I'm making a 24" frame, I can just drop the stops in the holes 12 grid lines apart, and know that the stops are exactly 24" apart. If I need a fractional, all I need is a stainless pocket rule, because I just need to measure from the nearest grid line, not the other side of the part (and many of the stops and squares have rules etched into them, eliminating the need for even the pocket square). Likewise, if I place 2 rows of stops perpendicular to each other, I know the part will be jigged square, and I can have the setup made before you've even managed to unclip the tape measure from your belt.

On complicated parts where you need a stop for an early stage of tackup, but need it out of the way for the next step, no big deal - just pull the stop out. As soon as part 1 is out of the jig, drop it right back in to start tackup on part 2. Try that with stops tacked to the table.
I can also snap a quick couple of digital photos of a setup, and be able to replicate in in mere minutes if the job repeats years later just by referring to the pictures.

You're seeing a welding table, but as Munkul said, these are fixturing and jigging systems, and are nothing without a well stocked selection of accessories.

And, I'm not building super accurate stuff like N55 is referring to. Anything I build could be built on a regular mill finish steel table - I can just do it faster. For a hobby shop or a farm repair shop, that probably doesn't have much value, at least probably not enough to justify the cost. As a job shop or production shop or really any kind of shop for hire, it makes a lot of sense strictly from a dollars and cents viewpoint.

[Lis2323]

^^^ what bassboy just said and more!

ATM I have this setup for modifying some clamps....


quick, easy and stress free.


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[Sberry]

There is nothing i dont "understand" about this. Where my direction with this is the infstuation and over estimation of the value/worth it is to most/many who seem to feel its going to make them more handsome and richer. The point is often brougt up how its such a $advantsge if one is in critical work but ,,,,, most aint that and that stuff is in the way as much as it helps, its great for a hobby guy building more tools to build more tools but it aint even on my short list and have easier or as easy from long experience setting up fabrications.
I see a young fellow here following this with glazed overeyes builr one he saved up for gonna end up junk. Not going to help his work, at expense to tools he actually did need and use. It wont be a fatal mistake but the value to the avg guy is over rated.

[Sberry]

UHV tubing and piping in the semiconductor world often needs multiple fittings basically perfectly coplanar and perpendicular or the stuff won't seal. Leaks that allow a few helium atoms past due to a metal-on-metal seal being slightly misaligned are detectable in these industries.

Is that who we are talking to here?

Likewise, if I place 2 rows of stops perpendicular to each other, I know the part will be jigged square, and I can have the setup made before you've even managed to unclip the tape measure from your belt.

This is where you would be wrong, I am done with most things with my tape measure before you guys even figure out which clamps you gonna use.

[Lis2323]

Is that who we are talking to here? This is where you would be wrong, I am done with most things with my tape measure before you guys even figure out which clamps you gonna use.

I will need to look into getting some of that “tape” you speak of….


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[Sberry]

All this is great if a guy wants to chop up new clamps to fit a special bench. There isnt anything fundamentally wrong with it especially if a guy has a fistful of extra 50 and 100s hanging out of his *** he doesnt know what to do with. Its not a bad thing but after a while I find its just more stuff sitting on the bench. After a while,,, I been at this a while and been thru more than a few shops,,, its the journeyman thing,,, but I just dont need everything I thought I did and a lot of it becomes a distraction. Lots of jigs end up one off so to speak. Doesnt make much difference to hobby, even business but to start up guys it can be a drawback.
I remember a time, a company owner come back with a platten he scored from a sale, I had been there about a week and wants us to unload this gem on a Sat.. I ask,, whats up with this,,, I got this for you guys and its gonna make us a fistfull. I had already asked for 2 11R, a hammer and adjusatable that didnt show up and I asked again on the Saturday as we unload this monster with a borrowed forklift. Already had a huge turd with one bench next to the one everyone used but,,, noooo. Middle of next week,,, we aint making enough money,,, I heard enuf, he followed me out to the lot as I was leaving. I stopped about a year later, shoved against the wall piled with crap. Got a bud in Det still trying to unload one didnt work out as well as he figured when it was on the auction block.

[Lis2323]

All this is great if a guy wants to chop up new clamps to fit a special bench. There isnt anything fundamentally wrong with it especially if a guy has a fistful of extra 50 and 100s hanging out of his *** he doesnt know what to do with. .

Some guys do things like chop up new clamps to fit a special bench and END UP with a fistful of $$$$$. Go figure !

Life just isn’t fair

[Sberry]

I can appreciate the fine tooling aspect and even if its psychological doesnt mean its not real. I can forget that at times. I can say this. I align myself or thoughts toward the hobby maint crowd in some respect. mI have neglected buying some premium tools I surely should have, an Ironworker being one of them. Whoops,,, was sposed to be looking at the weather.

[William Payne]

For everyone saying they don’t need a fixture table unless you are one of those guys who likes to weld things to their table or mess around squaring things up due to not having proper tooling I can see them being so handy.

I’ve never owned one or used one and I wouldn’t even use one as an every day welding bench but the amount of times I’ve been fabricating something and wished I had one is more than I can remember.

I’m not in production and don’t fabricate chassis but I’m going to put some holes for clamps in the table I’m building at the moment. I can’t be the only welder who gets really annoyed by only being able to clamp the outer perimeter of a table.

Also you don’t leave stuff on the welding table unless it’s for the job you are working on.

Stuff left on the welding table after a job finished is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Also it depends on the use case. The mindsets regarding how things get done in professional shops compared to hobby shops can be very different.

[Munkul]

Also you don’t leave stuff on the welding table unless it’s for the job you are working on.

Stuff left on the welding table after a job finished is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Me too.

A table is for working on, not for holding stuff! If it's holding stuff, it's basically an expensive shelf!

[William Payne]

I think we all need to remind ourselves that as welders we aren’t all doing the same thing. The requirements and what’s ok for a guy working on beat up farm equipment or more general engineering where tolerances are less critical or not at all are going to be very different to someone doing aerospace and that’s going to be different than someone doing nuclear and so on.

[Sberry]

I worked nuke,,, ha,,, I am sure some of the sub supplier's had some fancy stuff but never seen a bench in the plant fab shop wasnt a plate on a couple horses and out in the place pipe vices and the edge of out tool boxes. I was watching American restoration the other day, all real simple. Its not a bad thing,,,, just I manage to fab all day yesterday and didnt wish I had one,,, was hoping someone would stop and do it for me. I splice a 5x5 tube t5he other day, 3 common clamps, 1 piece of angle about a foot long and a yardstick and come out within a few thous and as straight or straighter than the tube itself.
As I said, its not a bad thing but every welder doesnt wish for one and in some aspects I don't like them, its not on the short list of shop stuff for me.

[Lis2323]

I’m not in production and don’t fabricate chassis but I’m going to put some holes for clamps in the table I’m building at the moment. I can’t be the only welder who gets really annoyed by only being able to clamp the outer perimeter of a table.

.

That is an excellent approach. I did just that with this table I built. I didn’t own a mag drill at the time so I used a $15 drill press I found on Craigslist. I chopped 6” off the column, and reattached the head assembly at 180°. That allowed me to clamp the drill press base to the table and drill my holes.

Pics of the drilling op may have been lost in the last welding web crash…




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[Sberry]

I think its over rated, as I said,,,, not that they aint good but the faster more precision is more fantasy than reality. Looks good, can use 3 special clamps to hold 1 tube in the middle of the table. The reality would have been 1 for a piece in most cases and 98% of the worlds welding work is one simple piece to another. Once in a while compound pieces but so many 1 simple thing or on equipment.
While I am a farmer I am also a fabricator, the view comes from working on dozens of benches/tables for dozens of shops and contractors. I think the view may be slightly different, I focus on the point the rubber hits the road,,,, I do understand hobby, the view may be different when the goal is to build tools to make more tools. I have done that, its something I really had to work on. I am very equipment concious including of moving and ridding of pieces taking space, being in my way, trimming till I only have what it takes in many cases. Lots of the future proofing didnt pay off, stuff changes, some becomes obsol;ete, new jobs, even the nature of some equipment and some work we do changes.
I will buy or make in a flash if I think its gonna help, I wish I could go out and buy or make something that would make more but I really have about hit the top of that where more is just clutter and cost.

[William Payne]

I worked nuke,,, ha,,, I am sure some of the sub supplier's had some fancy stuff but never seen a bench in the plant fab shop wasnt a plate on a couple horses and out in the place pipe vices and the edge of out tool boxes. I was watching American restoration the other day, all real simple. Its not a bad thing,,,, just I manage to fab all day yesterday and didnt wish I had one,,, was hoping someone would stop and do it for me. I splice a 5x5 tube t5he other day, 3 common clamps, 1 piece of angle about a foot long and a yardstick and come out within a few thous and as straight or straighter than the tube itself.
As I said, its not a bad thing but every welder doesnt wish for one and in some aspects I don't like them, its not on the short list of shop stuff for me.

Exactly why I said everyone’s needs are different. All depends on what you are doing. I really want to get a welding positioner, I have a use for one and it would be very handy. How ever there are plenty of guys who don’t use them and never have.

[California]

I think we all need to remind ourselves that as welders we aren’t all doing the same thing. The requirements and what’s ok for a guy working on beat up farm equipment

That's me. Repairs to stuff that broke, sometimes cobbling together unrelated stuff to fabricate something. Working outdoors because my barn stall is open-air, so mostly flux-core and some stick.

Here's what a fabrication table looks like at the extreme cheapskate end of the spectrum. Plenty of holes for clamps. The tabletop is five objects welded side by side, I think they were TV wall mounts. Free from a friend.

'Good enough for the girls I go with', as an old Carpenter buddy used to say. I can do precision similar to carpenter-spec, don't need waveguide-spec for farm repairs.



The most recent project, typical. To mount a rear cargo rack onto a car that has a 1.25" receiver, using stuff from my junk bin.



The project before that was more complex. An old tractor 3-point back blade brought into conformance with industry-standard, to match a quickhitch. New mount pins added several inches forward of the original pins. Now I can just back up to it, lift, go grade the lane. I no longer hesitate to use it like I did when it took 10 minutes of swearing to attach it.

This what the cheapskate, DIY, hobby-farmer end of the spectrum looks like, from here. Welding is an occasional, essential tool and I gotta admit, hobby.

It would be great to have the nice gear I see in the photos above but I'm not doing production, I could never justify what pro gear costs.

[psacustomcreations]

I think its over rated, as I said,,,, .

We got it.

Let it go.



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[smithdoor]

That is call CPR the only problem is no one wants to do mouth to mouth 😒 on horse .

Dave

We got it.

Let it go.



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[William Payne]

I hate when people mention the cheapskate way as I never want to call anyone a cheapskate as it sounds kind of derogatory.

Without calling anyone that, I think it best describes something that I clash with.

I never go out and buy the most expensive thing but I’m a buy once guy, I’m not going to spend $10 dollars 5 separate times Instead of paying $50 once. Sometimes I have to get by with something cheaper until I can get the more expensive thing but if it’s something I need I make sure to put it in the priority list.

What really really grinds my gears is when I’m forced to do a job in a really hard way when I know something exists that will save both time and money in the long run. Not saying to go and spend $5000 on a $500 job that’s not good for surviving.

A parts washer or an ultrasonic cleaner is a perfect example. The amount of times I’ve had to hand clean parts the hard way using chemicals that don’t even work while knowing things that work better exist I’ve lost count. But nobody wants to make the investment even though it would save hours on the job.

Or crawling around on the floor on a job because nobody wants to take the time to build a table to get the job to standing height to work on comfortably.

It’s actually one of the reasons I want to have my own business so that I can control the cheque book so to speak.

[Sberry]

I’m not going to spend $10 dollars 5 separate times Instead of paying $50 once

I am tool type. But here is kind of ewhat I am getting at with this whole spin so to speak. Its now not 10 to 50, its now 10 or 15$ and not always 1 replacement, some is still going that we hedged that bet on. We thought we would have to replace it but its still in service. Used to be stuff junk was 50% the cost of good and not very good but you can buy a combination wrench meets world standard for 2$ today, full polish, retail, long for 3. Sears cost 2x that 30 years ago and was no better at best.
We been replacing our 100 dollar grinders with 30$ ones we like as good or better. We now and have used adjustables next to Proto and Diamoind, all of them, now as good and maybe better in a white box. We been sticking with Vgrip and Channelock, they vend at stores sell at right price, still affordable. Screwdrivers,,,, never,,,,,, going to buy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, anything but HF again.

[Sberry]

spend $10 dollars 5 separate times Instead of paying $50 once.

I see this type of statement often,,,, just curious, when is the last time that happened?