I really like my Pocket Reference books. I've used them for almost 40 years!
The key here (to me) is the allowable ampacity based upon the wire length. I'm like Oscar, in that when it comes to electrical wire sizes I'd rather "have it, and not need it", versus "needing it, and not having it". Thus I will frequently upsize one wire size if I'm not sure about the load.
However, as others have pointed out, using 10Ga wire already counts as upsizing, based upon the 21A current draw and intermittent duty cycle.
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Also upsize is good it we are increasing the distance. My leads are upsized on my little stick, it came 12 and 15 ft maybe but we got 75 ft in one spot, 50 ft ground extension etc. Even the short lead is 2x the length came on it. Also not a duty cycle watcher but the machine not running at max in the case of the stick.
Doue to this chatter, been always wishing I would have upsized a piece back in the day I decide to test the link the other day, 1 volt drop at 200A across a ground bond. I use 115 on rare occasion. 90 some and 40 plasma. Leaves it at a volt or so drop at 100, nothing to stick welding and less for plasma.
Asking a question about need is different than what is the best. I wont make an argument that Snapon doesnt make the best wrench, maybe they do, maybe they dont, I dont know. Ask about the need, what it takes to get a starter off and there might even be a time and place that it could make it easier but after changing 100 starters over the years I can tell for a fact it doesnt matter and tossing gobs at it doesnt make it any better, only adds to the cost. There is a limit to when its worth it. This is different than true hobbty as a motivation but ask me about the wrench and its a different question than how someone feels about it.
I got some simple import with no cash worth I really tend to value as I do the costly ones due to the hard service they give and still do. No one gonna make thje weld much better with a cord more than a size bigger than it calls for, none, nada, not a bit. Changing a ground lead is a bit like NASCAR, costly but going for that last nick at wide open throttle,,,, to a street car a super air filter doesnt change a thing at common hiway speed. Amount of time at real wot is nill, only seconds in a day at most.
Might as well be a welding machine in the garage as a nascar or a speed boat.
When I started I was always fooling with it, now I tend to run it right out of the box at least for a while, I use less costly tools than I did starting out when I had bit more golden arm. I happened to see a tractor pull on TV, they had CMan boxes,,,, ha I know several guys with big snap collections they figured out they7 had to have in the younger days they would like to unload now at a fraction of the original cost. I buy for need and want too, less for want, more pragmatic today. For guys asking,,,, for guys starting, for guys that need can tell you for a fact the economy is the way to start in todays world and its much more enjoyable when its affordable and not such a gut wrenching financial decision.
For others my opin is buy what you want when you want as many as you want, guys that can afford every goodie as a hobby have a different perspective than others too. Different too if the goal is to build tools to make more tools, sure its all nice, its pretty, its for anyone wants it, personally not a hobby and wouldnt have a point for me. Only reason I got it is I have something I need to do. Along the way my perspective on tools has changed.
Its great that a guy can add 200 in new lead and a couple clamps to a new machine he bought for sport its worthy to note to the new 210 owner it really not gonna enrich him today. Since this is opinion only I think those guys are well served to run it till its a problem then start speculating, get familiar enough first so they can distinguish a bit of difference, catch a little air, face a few things as they come.
I would say the same for a which rod question, as a pro advisor like Louie says,,, get a couple and learn to run them before buying a box of every kind they can find on the internet.
Well I feel a high quality cord that hasn’t been run over had stuff dropped on it is going to run anything most guys have my past experience has been that even with a good big cord the wiring in the facility can be as big of a problem so to sit on here and debate things that have so many variables is kinda redundant as the question about extension cord size comes up about once a month I personally use a bigger cord like Oscar said I try to eliminate problems not saying it is better or worse. And extension cords are a consumable the get damaged but the worst bad habit we all have is someday we need to go a few more feet so we plug a cord into a cord and after a while nobody knows what size cord one or the other is. Get a high quality cord is the best bet
I agree, others have noted that the circuit wire counts along with the cord. What I make a point of is that the obsession doesn't match the reality. We tend to treat every calc like it's 100 ft long and is fully loaded.
The old timers used to just shrug when I come up with all this and now I know why. They knew that a general circuit that was overloaded was protected and that the biggest loads were applied 1 at a time thru a 14 cord with 15 end and about 13A. Steady load not even 80% of a 20A but closer to 80 of a 15A.
Of course higher loads applied, steady is 80% and after that it's sposed to be dedicated anyway.
This is just some generalization, it's a cross of fact with some opinion, not so much mine as a collective one from master and NEC as well as nema etc.
I am not sure how far they can go with inverters but I suspect it has leveled some and we won't see much in the way of further reduction in cord size. It's likely take a new plug and recept unless they use existing 6-20.
They almost make them run from a 16 now but would take a different class of ocpd adapter.
There is a limit to smaller circuits. Even with 100%effecient only so many watts gonna come thru it.
As another note. Back when 220 and 110 was nominal this was a bigger concern. We got more stuff but lots of it the peak has went down. I used AC buzzer, sucked 43 on old circuit My dc, 36 the electric is hot here. I tested one a while back. I was surprised, long long feeder, 600 ft, 10 houses on it and pulled 130 on the top and went from 242 to 241,,, 30 over its rating and 1 drop.
While it's true we got to figure the circuit back to the tranny I don't got to fret about it with a 210.
Might as well be a welding machine in the garage as a nascar or a speed boat.
When I started I was always fooling with it, now I tend to run it right out of the box at least for a while, I use less costly tools than I did starting out when I had bit more golden arm. I happened to see a tractor pull on TV, they had CMan boxes,,,, ha I know several guys with big snap collections they figured out they7 had to have in the younger days they would like to unload now at a fraction of the original cost. I buy for need and want too, less for want, more pragmatic today. For guys asking,,,, for guys starting, for guys that need can tell you for a fact the economy is the way to start in todays world and its much more enjoyable when its affordable and not such a gut wrenching financial decision.
For others my opin is buy what you want when you want as many as you want, guys that can afford every goodie as a hobby have a different perspective than others too. Different too if the goal is to build tools to make more tools, sure its all nice, its pretty, its for anyone wants it, personally not a hobby and wouldnt have a point for me. Only reason I got it is I have something I need to do. Along the way my perspective on tools has changed.
Its great that a guy can add 200 in new lead and a couple clamps to a new machine he bought for sport its worthy to note to the new 210 owner it really not gonna enrich him today. Since this is opinion only I think those guys are well served to run it till its a problem then start speculating, get familiar enough first so they can distinguish a bit of difference, catch a little air, face a few things as they come.
I would say the same for a which rod question, as a pro advisor like Louie says,,, get a couple and learn to run them before buying a box of every kind they can find on the internet.
Your passive aggressive demeaning commentary in the post quoted above (and others) that is obviously directed towards me is not welcome. I called it quits in my earlier post, but still you insist. Do you not have anything better to do than this?
I meant it as its a great thing that you do,,,, its only somewhgat toward you and none of this is aggressive. I admire and am jealous of your intellect. You bring a lot to this some would never see and some we might not consider.
So your comment about "Its great that a guy can add 200 in new lead and a couple clamps to a new machine he bought for sport" was not directed towards me? I find it quite odd since I just posted in another thread about adding leads and clamps to my MIG welders. So please do tell exactly who bought what machine for sport? If I'm wrong I'll concede I misunderstood. But please do tell.
I am sorry if you are offended, that wasnt the intent. I have a little issue with frustration for my inability to explain a simple concept that although can be an exact science doesnt need to be. The original question was good and its from a guy wanting to do it right, he is concerned and sounds like he has a good fundamental grip which is different than education, its different than an opinion, its a question really basic and well thought out. As an amateur he has come to the conclusion a professional would have if he didnt have free wire.
I would have found it difficult to argue if the next post said,,,, correct. Instead the first response he gets seeds some doubt on this fine job he did due to amateur opinion. Now while its not dangerous it became an opinion weather 2 or 3 or 4 code sizes are worth it or not and without some dissent this thread be dead and everyone know a little less than before.
Ya knnow,,, I dont watch that tips Jody guy but a couple times for 10 minutes and without any further can feel he been there and dun it. They got a feel for iut.. Albright,,, a couplke others here are more easy going than I am but I can tell from an answer to simple question they feel and see it like a web too.
I dont know if I have the capacity to learn the math but the install requirements have become so second nature and I dont even discuss it with those guys cause they already know and its obvious.
Its kind of directed but the point I was trying to make,,, you can afford it,,,, not a deal breaker, not a gut wrenching decision a guy want5s help with. I mean exactly thatr,,, guy wants to dump 200 on lead to sit on the machine,,,, fine, got no problem with that and good for you. Its not a moral question or a statement, its what it is.
Someone is right this comes up the same. Guy says, got no problem with spending some extra if its worth it. I dont want to toss money out the window too because I need a grinder too? No one recommended the cheapest he could get away with but did bother to post the requirements from both mfg and nec.
What louie understands about this is that past a certain size better than meets the demand it may need to be sized for the circuit its connected to. Wiring needs to meet code in excess of the real demands of the machine. The obsession with voltage drop muddies the bigger cvoncern of sizing componants for proper short circuit interuption especially when we get machines above 50A or 50A service. Usually involves sizing grounds for over current protection rather than wire size.
Same 2 things come up,,, its gonna voltage drop and all the breaker does is protect the wire. There aint 2 more inaccurate statements than those 2 in the wiring industry.
I will apologize to Oscar, he is a top member, I wish I had the smarts.
What drives this is sincere, I am not touchy, I am used to working with a crowd not so smart. This is the source of my frustration.
We tend to answer a question ok,,, the guys here do not scare me about wiring, they aint dangerous but we lag a bit of work in fundamental circuit design. We need to make sure guys with a future ahead of them in some wire related work have a little clue of how and why. Sometimes yes or no is ok but thinmk its better for regular Joe to figure out a little whats what and why they list it all the way they do and why so and for what reason if its a simple matter of wire upsize etc. Why dont we connject all the "220" stuff to 100A breaker? etc
There should be a couple other guys leading this on a bit.
From what I understand a 25’ 10/3 stranded SOOW wire for power to Hobart 190, with 30 amp breaker is plenty big enough.
Specs are 130 amps @ 21.5 volts 30% Duty cycle.
This is the wire specs: SOOW 10/3 Cable - SOOW Jacket, 30 Amps, 3 Wire, 600v - Water and Oil Resistant 25’
I don’t think 8/3 AGW is needed correct?
Just wanted to double check before ordering wire. :-)
Cheers, Allen
10/3 CORD
Yer mixing terminology in your description when you mention "wire"
Wire goes in the wall.
Cord-- extension cord/power cord
the problem with ordering Cord to make your own extension cord is that you you also need the 6-50 connectors which adds to the cost of the final cord.
Check prices on ready made welder cord.
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Not sure about the quality but I see an add for the yeswelder and a number 10 cord. Has anyone seen a ready made not 8? Something else good about it was it came 40 ft.
I will apologize to Oscar, he is a top member, I wish I had the smarts.
What drives this is sincere, I am not touchy, I am used to working with a crowd not so smart. This is the source of my frustration.
We tend to answer a question ok,,, the guys here do not scare me about wiring, they aint dangerous but we lag a bit of work in fundamental circuit design. We need to make sure guys with a future ahead of them in some wire related work have a little clue of how and why. Sometimes yes or no is ok but thinmk its better for regular Joe to figure out a little whats what and why they list it all the way they do and why so and for what reason if its a simple matter of wire upsize etc. Why dont we connject all the "220" stuff to 100A breaker? etc
There should be a couple other guys leading this on a bit.
It's fine, no need to apologize. But I would really prefer people to not tell me or others what my own motives are when I spend my hard earned money. No one here knows me personally, so no one here can possibly know what I buy and for what reason unless I choose to disclose it (ie, sport, fun, hobby, life-long passion, etc, etc, etc). The same exact way you wouldn't want me telling you how you feel/categorize your purchases and how you spend your hard-earned money. If we can agree to that, then it's all good n gravy.
I agree, what I meant earlier is,,,, its as good a hobby as any,,,, as worthy as any car or boat and no reason not to spend all you want on it. I am not questioning you,,,, its the question from the other guy,,, he wonders where its worth it,,, they/he as this is common,,, they will spend if they think its worth it,,, which is slightly different from person to person and there is a business term described as effort which describes the investment to get the work done economically. I suspect this is not relevent to you,,,, thats fine, its just different than a guy making sure he is not shorting himself but wanting to make sure he is being adequate. There is a diminishing return.
I am a utility junkie. A cross between a heavy homeowner and a light industrial and if I can upgrade or add another wire or pipe to do the work I will. Digging a ditch doesnt scare me. I have a well instead of municiple, the supply pressure changes thru the cycle and this is a bit of issue and sizing is a factor. As I mention the interest is in utility, electric is part of it, compressed air, water, phone lines now becoming obsolete though but whilmy view of demand has changed slightly and while I dont need 5x as big as Joe Avg I do need a step up.
As we can see there is a lot of speculation about all this, voltage drob is only an example and due to the speculation we have actually tested some. For example, we take a 140 feeder and plug in to cords, a 14 and a 12, each 50 ft. Turn machine up hi, wide open and note loss and at 50 ft 14 could just tell the loss to the point we need to touch the wire speed a little, with 50 12 couldnt tell the difference with 50 ft or at the panel. About 8 drop on the 14 and 3 or 4 on the 12. AC buzzer, turned up a little, 43A in, put 12 on it at 70 ft, got to turn it up a pinch, go to 10 the same as at the panel, right around 15 V drop with a 12, 3.5 or so with a 10 and only 2 with 8, the difference between 8 and 10 being so minor we couldnt tell a difference. Big leap then little steps so top speak.
We tested a couple air circuits. 2 stage, 100 ft of 12 and another one we had 3/4 on. 1/2 inch heavy air gun. The main drop was 3 or 4 1/2 inch and 2 with 3/4,,, pinch more loss with smaller pipe but on the secondary30+ loss in the hose and the reel. We could upsize the main to get a couple 3 or we could increase the hose size in the secondary and get 15,,, or we could shorten the 50 to 25 and get 15. Now that I think about it the actual was higher when I see the gauge.
Same for thew welders, we want longer leads also,,, but gaining by changing the primary didnt gain much but the secondary quite a little.
We were just curious as well as designing or doing something but the point was to rule out some speculation and see how close it came to that and calculation. We found a couple bottlenecks from installs we done moving in, hurried and used parts etc that5 reallyu only showed at extreme demand. We had wondered about a couple places with big air gun, wonded why it seemed a bit limited on the top, changed a couple hoses we had behind some places we forgot about and it pepped it up a little. It is good enough dont even change to 1/2 hose on the 3/4 gun, it has hit every job I tried. No further point in it.
Yes did mix terminology there, I know better than that. Lol
I have connectors of few different styles have 6-50 plugs and 240-Volt L14-30R twist-lock plug.
Running off 8000/10,000 watt generator with the 240-Volt L14-30R twist-lock outlet, so going to make up power cord with 240-Volt L14-30R twist-lock plug.
I made a short jumper from 6-50 outlet and L14-30 twist-lock for now.
I had a Hobart 210 MVP but it was stolen while back, along with 40’ 8/3 welding extension cord, gas bottle, cart & helmet. :-/
Used the 210 MVP on house 6-50 50 amp outlet and sometimes on the 8000/10,000 watt generator.
Fired up the H190 yesterday working on cart and really like it.
Have 20’ of 4ga stranded flexible cord for ground & 50 amp cast copper C clamp ground clamp & 25’ of 10/3 stranded flexible cord for power cord arriving Wednesday.
I was ‘sure’ 4ga & 10/3 cords were more than adequate for respective uses, but wanted to double check for reassurance. :-)
I did get a Lincoln 3350 series helmet to replace the cheapie one stolen, absolutely love it! Can actually see with it! Lol
If you want to get this thread back on track, I have the same welder. I ran about 25' of 10/2 from the plug to the breaker. I have about 40' of 10/3 extension cord. It all works fine.
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Originally Posted by Sberry
