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Thread: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

  1. #1
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    I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Hello,
    As a beginner (with an AC welder), I've done a lot of reading on rods and their uses recently. For example:
    https://www.weldingmania.com/stick/d...izes-and-uses/
    https://weldingpros.net/stick-weldin...ts-calculator/
    https://weldzone.org/welding-rods-sizes/

    I'm a bit lost on a few points. Yes, I know that as a beginner I probably don't need to be this detailed in my understanding. That doesn't change my level of interest.

    1: Why E6012?
    E6011 handles your needs for deep penetration. E6013 works great for shallow penetration.
    So, why the need for E6012? You could adjust the amperage of the others to get the desired result, right?

    2: Why Iron in the coatings?
    Coatings 4, 7, 8, and their respective XX2(4,7,8) counterparts, all contain Iron. Why not just use a larger rod and higher amperage for more deposition? Unless you're brazing the iron in the coating onto the welded part, you have to transfer enough heat to the rod to melt all the metal whether the metal is located in the coating or in the main rod, right?

    3: When would you use different levels of coating?
    Rods can be coated in flux lightly, moderately, or heavily.
    I'd assume that lightly is for fresh metal, like in a factory.
    Moderately is what you'd normally use.
    But when would you use heavily coated rods? So far, when people deal with rust and grim, the threads I've seen online say something to the effect of, "Use 6010 and burn the contaminates to hell." Although I have no reason to doubt these recommendations from professional welders, it further weakens the case for heavily flux coated rods.

    4: Why E90XX?
    Most sites list the E60XX and E70XX when describing rods. But when I went to purchase rods, I couldn't help but notice that there are E90XX rods. E60XX are the common ones. E70XX have higher ductility and are tougher. But when would you use E90XX rods? What are they for? Tougher, defiantly. But most steels are not even that tough, right?
    Last edited by HotEnd; 05-07-2022 at 09:31 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    For beginner with an AC welder just pick one rod and get good with it. 6013, 6011, and 7014 are all good choices. Everything else is a distraction at this point.
    Last edited by Louie1961; 05-07-2022 at 11:12 PM.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    • 6012 isn't too common, but it has it's application.
    •Sometimes more amperage is not appropriate for the application and it's more desirable to generate a larger fillet size with an iron-powder based rod. Many Iron power rods can deposit more metal at a lower amperage than a larger diameter rod where the iron is in the steel center rod which necessitates more amps.
    •Coating size isn't really correlated to application, because the pros/cons lie in the chemistry of the flux not the amount. Cellulosic electrodes like 6010 and 6011 and creates more arc pressure that digs more forcefully into the base metal, but the resultant weld metal contains excessive hydrogen content which then diffuses out at the grain boundaries, leading to weaker Charpy V-notch ratings and less elongation. It almost sounds like you're associating the flux on smaw rods to flux used in oxy-fuel brazing, where the amount of flux is correlated directly with the cleaning of the base metals. Flux on smaw electrodes does provide help in obtaining a clean weld, but the chemical/metallurgical process is different.
    •Many of the 90+ ksi rods are specialized for chromium/molybdenum steels or other specific applications. Lincoln SMAW Poster Guide.
    Last edited by Oscar; 05-07-2022 at 10:45 PM.
    1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig!



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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    I would suggest getting a few old welding books, perhaps looking first at the library, because they are generally more thorough and better organized. Also, not everything online is useful or always correct. For example, from your third link (https://weldzone.org/welding-rods-sizes/) I will copy and paste a passage with my comments in blue near or below the highlighted words I'm commenting on.

    -----------------------
    A welding rod is an electrode or metal rod specially prepared to serve as a filler material in arc welding processes. They are manufactured in [of] ferrous and non-ferrous metal.

    The welding rod is used to carry electrical current through the workpiece and join two pieces. Depending on the process, the rod can be consumable, in the case of gas metal welding or shielded welding, or non-consumable.

    That's a poor description; the current obviously requires a complete circuit, coming from the machine through the lead to the electrode holder ("stinger"), into the electrode, through the arc (where the heat is generated, the metals melted), into the workpiece, and back to the machine through the ground clamp and cable. This is called "stick" welding or now, Shielded Metal Arc Welding (SMAW). With MIG (Metal-Inert Gas), now Gas Metal Arc Welding or GMAW, the consumable wire is not called a rod, or normally even an electrode. In TIG welding (now GTAW), where the tungsten is not consumed, the tungsten electrode also is not called a "rod".

    In direct polarity, the material is positive and the electrode is negative, and in opposite polarities the electrode is positive and the material is negative.
    Within the US welding field, the terms are generally "straight" or "reverse" polarity, if not using the full "electrode positive", or "electrode negative".

    During welding, the electric arc burns between the workpiece and the consumable electrode. The required filler material comes from the covering of the electrode. For welding, the stick electrode is clamped in the electrode holder and guided along the seam by the user. After the weld seam has cooled down, the slag can be removed.

    In TIG welding, the tungsten electrode isn't "consumable". With Stick welding, most of the filler comes from the rod; the coating only adds filler with certain types such as 7014 which has iron powder in the coating. Generally, the coating produces gasses to protect the molten metal within the arc, and molten silicates, etc. (slag) to protect the deposited metal as it cools. With MIG, all the filler is from the melting wire (which doesn't have a coating).

    Welding rods can be used on all steel materials, nickel and nickel alloys, copper and copper alloys, aluminum materials, and cast iron (limited).[/B]
    Another misleading oversimplification
    -----------------------------

    If somebody doesn't fully answer all your questions before I return, I'll try to do so. Right now, I have other chores to finish.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    A lot old rods you was before mig . Typical some stick was a special
    industrial need.

    I found 3 rods cover most work can done with E6011, E6013 and E7018.
    Most of the E7014 and E7024 is replaced with mig welding.

    Rods like E90XX are for special/alloy types of steels.

    More and more I see fluxcore take over the stick welding.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by HotEnd View Post
    Hello,
    As a beginner (with an AC welder), I've done a lot of reading on rods and their uses recently. For example:
    https://www.weldingmania.com/stick/d...izes-and-uses/
    https://weldingpros.net/stick-weldin...ts-calculator/
    https://weldzone.org/welding-rods-sizes/

    I'm a bit lost on a few points. Yes, I know that as a beginner I probably don't need to be this detailed in my understanding. That doesn't change my level of interest.

    1: Why E6012?
    E6011 handles your needs for deep penetration. E6013 works great for shallow penetration.
    So, why the need for E6012? You could adjust the amperage of the others to get the desired result, right?

    2: Why Iron in the coatings?
    Coatings 4, 7, 8, and their respective XX2(4,7,8) counterparts, all contain Iron. Why not just use a larger rod and higher amperage for more deposition? Unless you're brazing the iron in the coating onto the welded part, you have to transfer enough heat to the rod to melt all the metal whether the metal is located in the coating or in the main rod, right?

    3: When would you use different levels of coating?
    Rods can be coated in flux lightly, moderately, or heavily.
    I'd assume that lightly is for fresh metal, like in a factory.
    Moderately is what you'd normally use.
    But when would you use heavily coated rods? So far, when people deal with rust and grim, the threads I've seen online say something to the effect of, "Use 6010 and burn the contaminates to hell." Although I have no reason to doubt these recommendations from professional welders, it further weakens the case for heavily flux coated rods.

    4: Why E90XX?
    Most sites list the E60XX and E70XX when describing rods. But when I went to purchase rods, I couldn't help but notice that there are E90XX rods. E60XX are the common ones. E70XX have higher ductility and are tougher. But when would you use E90XX rods? What are they for? Tougher, defiantly. But most steels are not even that tough, right?

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Actually, I was thinking in terms of soldering flux. Like you'd use for electrical connections. I've learned as I work on such things that sometimes you need extra flux to get rid of the contaminates.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    The primary purpose of the flux coating on stick welding electrodes is to form a gaseous shield around molten weld pool to protect it from atmospheric oxygen. Stick electrode coatings are not really the same as fluxes for brazing and soldering where etching/cleaning is the primary purpose. Coatings on stick welding electrode have other important secondary properties that include, reducing hydrogen removing impurities, forming a slag shell as the well puddle solidifies to help for out of position welding, and adding element that alloy with the weld deposit and the base metal.

    Get the Lincoln's "Handbook of Arc Welding Procedure" In my view Lincoln has done the most for welding education and development. You can beat the learning curve somewhat by following that book and watching youtubes but the best move is take some classes or find a mentor who can help you get on the page - that will make your practice pay. I went through a long process trying to learn how to weld - the lights come on a little at a time. The internet changed a lot but you still need to run weld on plate. If all you have is AC just get one of the recommended wires in 1/8 and get at it. Good luck. Get an apprenticeship and let a union teach you how to weld - go to lincoln's Basic Welding course in Cincinnati.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by HotEnd View Post
    2: Why Iron in the coatings?
    "Fast fill." Size for size, 7018 (a "fast fill" rod) is gonna put down more pounds of weld deposit per stick burned than (fast freeze) 6010 or 6011. As for "why not use a fast-freeze instead of fast-fill and just go up in rod size?" -- I'm not sure why not. Never really thought about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotEnd View Post
    4: Why E90XX?
    Most sites list the E60XX and E70XX when describing rods. But when I went to purchase rods, I couldn't help but notice that there are E90XX rods. E60XX are the common ones. E70XX have higher ductility and are tougher. But when would you use E90XX rods? What are they for? Tougher, defiantly. But most steels are not even that tough, right?
    Don't confuse toughness/ductility with strength. They are different properties. Sometimes they go hand-in-hand, and sometimes they don't.

    For example, you could heat high-carbon steel to critical temperature and then quench it, and its strength and hardness would both increase due to the quenching, but its ductility/toughness would actually decrease. You could hit it with a hammer and it would break rather than deform. (In fact, if you quench it violently enough, the internal stresses can become so high that it will spontaneously break all by itself, without you even hitting it or bending it.) Ductility/toughness is a measure of how much you can permanently deform the material (by stretching/thinning it, or upsetting/thickening it, or denting it, partially shearing it, or bending it permanently) before it breaks.

    Springs are an example of something very hard and very strong but with low ductility. If you bend them far enough, they will often break before they will yield (bend permanently)...or they will yield, and then immediately (with a tiny bit more additional force) break. The same is true of many hand files. It all depends on the heat treating and the carbon content (assuming straight carbon steels here).

    Yes, 7018 has a lot of ductility/toughness, but not just because it starts with a 70 instead of a 60. Those numbers refer to strength only, not toughness/ductility. To find out the toughness/ductiity of a particular rod, you want to get the property spec sheets and look at the numbers for "elongation" and "charpy v-notch" testing, and then compare those figures to the equivalent test results for other electrodes... for a real-world example, compare the spec sheets for 7018 and 7014. If I'm not mistaken, 7018 will generally have more toughness/ductility than 7014, even though they will have roughly equivalent tensile strengths.

    Most of the mild steels out there will not even approach the strength of even the weakest weld filler. A36 mild steel for example has a tensile yield strength (yield strength being the point at which the material permanently deforms) of 36ksi. 6010 is gonna have a yield strength of 60ksi, and so on...
    Last edited by StandarDyne; 05-08-2022 at 11:15 AM.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by Eelspike View Post
    Get the Lincoln's "Handbook of Arc Welding Procedure" In my view Lincoln has done the most for welding education and development.
    The only difference between my AC welders controls and current welder's ones is the addition of a DC selection switch.
    So, how did they manage to come out with 14 editions of that handbook?
    I'm asking because I'm trying to understand how it matters which one I get. As a student, I would prefer an earlier, cheaper one, of course. But if I really need the latest I would get it.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    18 cools slower giving time to organize grain structure, it also cleans better, wayyyy more flux to carry away contamination, its milder penetration which can reduce addmix allowing for a more "pure" weld for lack of better wording. While 13 has a rep for mild pen,,, its about the same as 18, it was needed when we only had AC. Real sheet metal welders dont use it they use 11, if freezes fast and has substantially lower current requirements. I am sure somewhere some place they use 12,,, it was mostly for sheet shops and as was mentioned that was before the advent of the common mig machine which has nearly obsolesced it. I dont even braze anymore, used to do it daily.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    The only difference between my AC welders controls and current welder's ones is the addition of a DC selection switch.
    Not really, its more than a switch, its the current type.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by HotEnd View Post
    The only difference between my AC welders controls and current welder's ones is the addition of a DC selection switch.
    That is the only physical difference but then there is, in addition to AC welding, DCEP and DCEN - more to cover in the book and more electrodes become useable.

    So, how did they manage to come out with 14 editions of that handbook?
    I'm asking because I'm trying to understand how it matters which one I get. As a student, I would prefer an earlier, cheaper one, of course. But if I really need the latest I would get it.
    Better to get a newer book as it will (hopefully) contain corrections and new material. The 13th edition can be downloaded - perhaps the 14th can too but the 13th will be fine.

    There are quite a few downloadable books and many AWS documents. Don't forget to weld as well though.

    Jack

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    I agree
    The Lincoln's "Handbook of Arc Welding Procedure" is how learn to weld great.
    I thing school is easier than book but for some reason you cannot goto school it is a great book.
    I agree with Eelspike

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Eelspike View Post
    The primary purpose of the flux coating on stick welding electrodes is to form a gaseous shield around molten weld pool to protect it from atmospheric oxygen. Stick electrode coatings are not really the same as fluxes for brazing and soldering where etching/cleaning is the primary purpose. Coatings on stick welding electrode have other important secondary properties that include, reducing hydrogen removing impurities, forming a slag shell as the well puddle solidifies to help for out of position welding, and adding element that alloy with the weld deposit and the base metal.

    Get the Lincoln's "Handbook of Arc Welding Procedure" In my view Lincoln has done the most for welding education and development. You can beat the learning curve somewhat by following that book and watching youtubes but the best move is take some classes or find a mentor who can help you get on the page - that will make your practice pay. I went through a long process trying to learn how to weld - the lights come on a little at a time. The internet changed a lot but you still need to run weld on plate. If all you have is AC just get one of the recommended wires in 1/8 and get at it. Good luck. Get an apprenticeship and let a union teach you how to weld - go to lincoln's Basic Welding course in Cincinnati.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    Not really, its more than a switch, its the current type.

    I didn't mean to belittle the change. I just found it amazing that there are 14 editions. I mean:
    1st edition: AC welding.
    2nd edition: AC + DC welding.
    Why more than that? There's not much more the welder can control than the electrodes and the controls on the machine (unless I'm missing something) -- and it looks like the electrodes and addition of DC power to the welding machines list of capabilities have been standardized since before I was born.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    Better to get a newer book as it will (hopefully) contain corrections and new material. The 13th edition can be downloaded - perhaps the 14th can too but the 13th will be fine.

    There are quite a few downloadable books and many AWS documents. Don't forget to weld as well though.

    Jack
    Where can it be downloaded? I mean, I know I could get an ebook off of amazon or somewhere, but than I might as well buy the physical one because Amazon is very bad when it comes to things you (should) own after you purchase them.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    For beginner with an AC welder just pick one rod and get good with it. 6013, 6011, and 7014 are all good choices. Everything else is a distraction at this point.
    id agree 99% (well worded) , except id sub the 7104 for 7108

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by HotEnd View Post
    Where can it be downloaded? I mean, I know I could get an ebook off of amazon or somewhere, but than I might as well buy the physical one because Amazon is very bad when it comes to things you (should) own after you purchase them.
    Many places - use a Google search.

    Here is one: https://pdfcookie.com/documents/linc...g-ylj9k8z4en23

    Jack

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    There is a Lincoln 7018-AC electrode they sell it at box stores Home Depot. It's only a few week ago i ran some welding galvanized grid deck on a small drawbridge, the contractor got it over Easter weekend because we needed it first thing monday morning, ran it DC+ first and then switch to AC it ran fine both ways but this was a dirty flat weld new galvanized to old painted beam that had been heavily primed.

    My first welder was a Sears AC buzz box that adjusted with a hand crank and was using 6013 and 6011 - my father in law lent that machine to me i broke it - i bought an AC DC Lincoln Tombstone and really thought i knew how to weld using 6010, and 7018. I wanted to weld aluminum and i bought a used auto body mig a Hansen and with a teflon liner tried pushing aluminum to weld a floor in my clam boat nightmare mess of wrong equipment inexperience and stubbornness maybe mostly stubbornness. I bought a Millermatic 200 mig with a spool gun and it could weld aluminum and steel - i thought - i kept at it - I bought Miller Dialarc 250 tig with a water cooler - i gave the Lincoln Tombstone back to my father in law i still have those Millers they paid for themselves again and again they are old and banged up like me but they still work great. I have a new tig setup and i'm learning it's settings. Remaining teachable is a constant struggle.

    Many farmers around the country and a lot of backyard welders stick with the Lincoln AC buzz box and you can't argue with success making good looking strong welds within the limits of an AC stick welder. The new mig machines are so available they have more or less eclipsed the buzz box welders but i still think people ought learn puddle control with stick welding first. The Lincoln Big Book covers all arc welding processes and has diagrams of different patterns for moving different electrodes. So that's yesterday and i'm padding beads with the new tig to get my aluminum game back after a career of welding structural steel. Just sit down and weld beads on scrap plate flat until they look right and then move to welding vertical and overhead.
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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    ... I found 3 rods cover most work can done with E6011, E6013 and E7018...
    Add some stainless and NI rods into that mix and I fully agree with you. But I guess some special applications require specialty rods... But that's totally out of my league anyway.

    While I am from Spain and here (in Europe basically) the 6013 is used everywhere for everything.. I am not that good at running them, so since I found out about the 7018 and 7014 rods (thanks to you guys in the other side of the pond) that's what I mostly use.

    Mikel

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    the 6013 is used everywhere for everything..
    Gee,,, we had a thread here about welding some common steel with them and had several near heart attacks. About the lastly I used any was in the early 80's. Some place had them and a buzzer.

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Thanks gang for all the information just ordered this book

    https://www.jflf.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PH
    Retired Old Guy

    Hobart 210
    Lincoln AC/DC 225/125
    Evolution 14 Saw

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Looks like a great book.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by NotaVegetarian View Post
    Thanks gang for all the information just ordered this book

    https://www.jflf.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PH

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by NotaVegetarian View Post
    Thanks gang for all the information just ordered this book

    https://www.jflf.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PH
    If anyone is interested, the 13th edition can be downloaded as a PDF

    Jack

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Do have the link uou can post

    Thank you 😊
    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    If anyone is interested, the 13th edition can be downloaded as a PDF

    Jack

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    Re: I desire to understand what rod is best for what application

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Do have the link uou can post

    Thank you 
    Dave
    https://pdfcoffee.com/qdownload/linc...-pdf-free.html

    I just used Google. There are multiple sources and several versions. This is the 13th edition

    Jack

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