While its true

[Sberry]

While its true a short 16 wire may trip a 50A breaker we are not allowed to wire it that way,.

[smithdoor]

That would be call a fuse.
On automotive I found use a small gauge wire as a fuse.

Dave

While its true a short 16 wire may trip a 50A breaker we are not allowed to wire it that way,.

[danielplace]

While its true a short 16 wire may trip a 50A breaker we are not allowed to wire it that way,.

Guess that other thread giving you the "502 BAD GATEWAY" too ?

The NEC doesn't regulate the size of cord that comes on a machine. MANY machines that are 100% meant or actually do have a 50 amp cord cap on them and fed with a 50 amp will only have #10's in their cords or less. Some may have protection in the cord cap but most will not. Why ?, because it works. It doesn't have to meet NEC or standard wiring practices.

100% safe because the machine can only do one of three things.

#1 draw what it draws and works fine on cord and duty cycle it is. All is good.
#2 goes to a dead short line to ground or phase o phase. The 50 breaker won't like either event and trip quickly.
#3 be a open circuit or something LESS than when working properly. Still no problem for cord that would feed it when working fully.

So the machine only needs a cord big enough to run it no matter it is connected to. The break isn't their to necessarily protect the machine only the the wire if it was properly sized to begin with.

Think about your zip cord on your lamp plugged into 20 amp dining circuit. #18 gauge possibly with no protection because the lamps it accepts are not likely to exceed the size of the cord capabilities of supplying power to it safely.

Bet zip cord is one of common cause for fires though. Pets and zip cords with 15-20 on them can easily light something a fire. Just fraying/or cracking from age and people putting it where it doesn't belong.

If you think anything that has a 50 amp cord cap fed with a 50 amp breaker also needs #6 SJO cord that would be waste of money when it comes with #10. No you don't have to change the breaker either.

The Dynasty 280 can safely be run with standard 50 amp cord cap installed on the factory #10 cord it comes with. Draws about 34 amps single phase 240 volt.

[WNY_TomB]

While its true a short 16 wire may trip a 50A breaker we are not allowed to wire it that way,.

.
i have seen back of inverter welder the main power switch was a circuit breaker as the switch, probably slow 30 amp breaker although
machine can pull 38 amps at 80% duty cycle
.
BUT i also got a 225 amp inverter with 6ga welding cables that get hot over 80 amps if welding alot. i tried welding at 200 amps dont
matter if machine rated 50% duty cycle the welding cable will get super hot and melt before the inverter overheats in 5 minutes
,
even a dumb welder if he see's his welding cable hot smoking even burning (yes the smell of burning wire insulation in the morning) will stop
welding
.....circuit breaker as main power switch probably is if welder connected bigger welding cable to inverter like 2 or 0 wire, 225amp inverter is
about 140 amps 100% duty cycle but no way #6 welding cables take 140 amps continuously

[Freebirdwelds]

I'll never understand why people come on here trying to find the smallest wire extension cord they can use for their welder. But hey it's their shiit let them burn it up.

[jpump5]

While its true a short 16 wire may trip a 50A breaker we are not allowed to wire it that way,.

Your 16ga. wire may handle short circuit current long enough
to trip the 50amp breaker, but what if it’s not a short circuit?
Say a device fails in such a way that it draws 49 amps.
Breaker never trips, 16ga. wire gets hotter and hotter.

[bigb]

There's an "engineer" over at the RV forum who insists 50 amp to 30 amp dogbones are dangerous because the 30 amp RV only has a #10 cord. I explained to him that the RV has a 30 amp main to protect the cord from overload and the 50 amp pedestal breaker will protect it against a short circuit. He insists "something could happen to the cord" between the pedestal and the trailer and create an overload over 30 amps and under 50 amps and burn up the cord. I asked him to describe such an event, and he ignored the question and did not answer. I asked him if he realizes many motor circuits are wired that way, he did not answer. I asked him why are the dogbones listed and approved and sold by the thousands, he answered "there are plenty of dangerous products that get listed". He went on to say "something like that would never be allowed on a boat"

[CAVEMANN]

That would be call a fuse.
On automotive I found use a small gauge wire as a fuse.

Dave

That's called a fusible link, they're also a different type of wire and can be purchased from an auto parts store in different amperage ratings.

[Sberry]

Ya, the concept why the 30 to 50 is lost,,, But the NEC DOES spec wire, so does nema and yes you can have a smaller wire on a 20A but its listed as to size, they cant just make it up.

The break isn't their to necessarily protect the machine only the the wire if it was properly sized to begin with

Here is where we should gave a point of discussion,,, yes it is there to protect the machine for fault. Anything plugged in to a listed circuit must be designed for fault to it until it has further protection,,, hence the little fuse on the Xmas tree lights or the fuse on a clock on electric range.
Maybe bigb above can come with more concise explanation and he does but its "not only the wire" which is where thgis part of the conversation heads south,,, same thing he is trying to splain to the engineer. Extension cord doesnt need to be sized for the breaker,,, only the applied load and for fault protection.
This is why I mention the new dvi,,, used to be machines needed a 12 cord, they used the same one for a stickmate as theyu did a 180 feeder, then they wanted to downsize the wire on the feeder, cant plug a 14 in to a 50 so they come up with the adapter basically add another fuse for it.

[Sberry]

Code goes on at length about the construction of appliances, requirements for light fixtures, cords connecting appliances, even got a couple charts with lists as to whats a legal cord. Its worth reading 240.5 Take a 180 wire welder, came with 12/50 cord and legal to plug in to a welder outlet. In manual says,,, 14 is legal to wire it with but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, if this small size is used must reduce the breaker to 30. They are not reducing is cause the load changed, simply for fault.
Welding machine companies go to great extent to make the machine code compliant.

[Sberry]

Somewhere is the thing is says,,, must comply with all aspects of the code if it is to be energized by 120/240 system. Doesnt say,,, if a guy feels like it,,, or thinks its ok then its fine.

There's an "engineer" over at the RV forum who insists 50 amp to 30 amp dogbones are dangerous because the 30 amp RV only has a #10 cord. I explained to him that the RV has a 30 amp main to protect the cord from overload and the 50 amp pedestal breaker will protect it against a short circuit. He insists "something could happen to the cord" between the pedestal and the trailer and create an overload over 30 amps and under 50 amps and burn up the cord

I must have met this guy too,,, ha, heard one line of the code,,, and I say heard rather than read. Misses some oither fundamentals of basic circuit design. Whole world runs on this principle but all we hear is,,,,, all it does is,,, Kind of like one line of a constitutional amendment. Sometimes there is more to it and relates to other parts.

[Sberry]

I'll never understand why people come on here trying to find the smallest wire extension cord they can use for their welder. But hey it's their shiit let them burn it up.

They are not doing that,,, they are asking is do they really need a number 6 which is a different question than whats the smallest,,,, cant say I have heard that asked. They have asked,,, what is adequate,,, or more like is this adequate when asking about a cord 2 sizes bigger than the machine needs.

[danielplace]

Code goes on at length about the construction of appliances, requirements for light fixtures, cords connecting appliances, even got a couple charts with lists as to whats a legal cord. Its worth reading 240.5 Take a 180 wire welder, came with 12/50 cord and legal to plug in to a welder outlet. In manual says,,, 14 is legal to wire it with but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, if this small size is used must reduce the breaker to 30. They are not reducing is cause the load changed, simply for fault.
Welding machine companies go to great extent to make the machine code compliant.

The NEC has nothing to do with any cord on any device that is UL approved with that cord from the factory. If it came with it you can use it. Plenty of machines have smaller wire than the wire feeding te 50 amp plug you plugging it in to. Without protection in the plug to protect the smaller wire. The machine protects the smaller wire. It can use more than it draws.

The NEC even allows for the permanent wiring from breaker to the outlet to be reduced for a welder because of duty cycle of the machine is also factored in. So the cord sure as heck can be too, eh ?

[Sberry]

Yes they do, they list the cord sizes, yes they can be reduced but there is a minimum to meet fault requirements. I didn't say they couldnt be reduced, said it needs to be compliant. Am I wording that so as to make that terribly difficult to understand? They cant pick any size. They are listed as is appliance and fixture wire. There is also some language in the front of the book says,,, basically, items, equipment which would be like air comp or heating or cooking must meet the standards and be cleared by a let authority and every item produced doesnt have to be inspected under an approved design but its got to be compliant. Same as they list extension cord minmums.

[Sberry]

It basically says it cant pass UL unless it meets certain code requirements like,,, shall disconnect all ungrounded conductors. Sizes the taps and fixture wires and even permits connected loads thru proper plug design,,, says,, you cant put this listed plug pn a number 20 wire. The lists use connected load as a Max limit but the size is a minmum,,, so you can put a 15 load on 50A circuit but its got to be thru a 12 wire. You could put a 2A load on it and its got to be a 12 wire and a 50A plug.
And,,,,,,,,,,,, you can put a 48A load on it for 20% thru same 12 wire and plug. What you cand do is put 2 amps on a 14 wire on a 50 plug with a 50 breaker,,, it is however legal with a 30.

[Sberry]

My pressure washer is a text book case of this. The only additional internal protection it has is thermal on the fan motor and although the transformer uses 1/2 the current a 120V unit does it specs different set of wires for it. Simply adding 6 inches of 14 wire instead of 16 means they dont need additional fuse in its case. Reduced the load from 2 A to 1 and upsize the wire so its covered under the premise circuit breaker. What II point out to those who care is,,, there are several ways to do overcurrent compliance,,, one common way is to size wire properly for it instead of adding additional equipment. The internals of the equipment like a buzz box, an air comp designed for the rated fault protection and why its often listed and limited. Machine comes with 50 plug and its not designed to plug in to 60,,,, whole plug and cord system designed to prevent that from happening. They try to prevent it despite some opinions that it will be fine cause it works,,,, while that is true,,, which brings this kind of full circle.
They aint sposed to build it that way and we aint allowed to wire it that way. There is part A and B,,, wire sized for reason other than load. Breaker may be sized for other than thermal overload.

[Sberry]

Air condition maker not sposed to use a wire not 125% of X load for motor and is allowed X amount of overcurrent with that. Code wouldnt recognize UL or NEMA if they didnt meet that. Means they can use a different breaker within those lines than a guy can in a general circuit in his house cause it is that and aint the other but the mfg has to be compliant,,, they cant just make it up.

[Sberry]

What the mfg is ensures this compliance, they dont make it up and in theory all done thru cord and plug system. Once we get above standard 50A and circuit design or providing the connections we are sposed to thoroughly understand the compliance. It doesnt mean that all installs done by not understanding are wrong, under 50A its slightly different than providing conductors along with specific grounding conductor sizes. Ground wire to match breaker as well as ungrounded conductors so to speak.

[Sberry]

Some of this may apply to service entrance conductor sizing but I have trouble focusing as it is. There are even cord details but with a welder needs 100A and calls for 8 wire a number 6 cable is not a legal install. Put it on a 50 or 60 receptical or from a main to sub at 60 legal install. But the ground is not rated for bigger currents.

[Sberry]

I heard it all with some of this,,,, but if. It often starts with a version, likely true but not always accurate. One of my net buds Hank J hung out on Miller was gonna come for a visit but died on us,,, but he was a sparky had really seem it all and really was a natural. I got a bud wouldnt know one code from another that understand this by nature since he was a school kid. I am not an electrician, it takes me a long time to look in to the how and why but its got to be on a simple level, more than 3 or 4 wires and it all looks like a bowl of spaggatti and I really got to work to think it thru.
The code book is super impressive. I am totally amazed how many layers there is and it ends up you shall, must, all, required, not required, I forget them all but they are some of the most important words. No where does it ever say, if you fewel like it, if you understaNnd or dont, if you fel it will or worn, if you seen it or didnt, doesnt ask for the personal experience. I have seen 2 strands, filiments of a 16 cord trip a 60 in a panel up stream,,,, yes, great, good thing it works but doesnt mean I can wire 16 to a 60.
The book doesnt explain why and the front of the book is well worth reading for anyone in the trades, answers a lot of speculation, would be worth it for me to go thru it again at some point.
I am engine club member, its a huge outfit and we got a master, ret county inspector. I cleaned up some cords for I went there, turns out it wouldnt been a worry but guys ask him some questions and he supervises some installs but it got his attn when I quiz him about a particular process regarding this, man he just knew I read the book.
When I see long timers using 110 and 220 it makes me wonder, often they work in other phases of electric. I know guys real bright and know a lot, there are a couple on forums, worked electric all their life but never had to take a test in the same capacity as a modern state lic. State like MI is pretty stringint, not all are, some are old and even had county licences, some of those ended up grandfathered and I seen some absolutely horrible types with journeyman and jerked off union card. Then there is the handyman, he is the guy "someone told me", I was always told, a loit of those quote code so to speak and guy said at home depot they not allowed to say meets code or not,,, with good reason for sure. Despite trying,,, in my personal experience never actually came up with an idea where I could prove a code wrong) (different statement than the application or opinion etc)
So,,, the code does most of the thinking for us, provides a whole system of cord and plug and whip design. Its up with mfg to comply. An extension cord is a good case, its the job of the mfg to insure its a 16, there is a common phrase that the mfg can do whatever they want and that is not an accurate statement, they may use a wire different than a house wire under circumstances for equipment, but they cant attatch an auxilary outlet to it without meeting the rest of the code standards. (hence the invention of the thermal reset button)

[Sberry]

There's an "engineer" over at the RV forum who insists 50 amp to 30 amp dogbones are dangerous because the 30 amp RV only has a #10 cord. I explained to him that the RV has a 30 amp main to protect the cord from overload and the 50 amp pedestal breaker will protect it against a short circuit. He insists "something could happen to the cord" between the pedestal and the trailer and create an overload over 30 amps and under 50 amps and burn up the cord. I asked him to describe such an event, and he ignored the question and did not answer. I asked him if he realizes many motor circuits are wired that way, he did not answer. I asked him why are the dogbones listed and approved and sold by the thousands, he answered "there are plenty of dangerous products that get listed". He went on to say "something like that would never be allowed on a boat"

Ya,,, this is a poster case for exactly what I am talking about.

[Sberry]

Ya,,, I talk to one,, well they allow it on an airplane. I said,,, someone wasted a lo0t of education, I got a 4 yr old knows the difference between a plane and a house. We went to mark some equipment the other day and I wonder wtf,,, well if this was a ship,, and you couldnt fly a plane if you didnt know this proper way and I had wo say,,,, what about this pickup truck looks like a fuggin plane or a ship????
Same for the welder wire question,,, it becomes I am this or that and dont know of any inspector would approve this or that and as sensitive as code is to context a guy would think that would be obvious to someone so well versed. Not that they were not masters or didnt do that same work fopr 40 yrs but the understanding of some difference with this stuff seems to get blurred or only one layer thick,,, kind of capt obvious.

[Sberry]

One of my first mentors was a smart guy, had some electronic tech and then industrial guy where he was smarter than everyone around him. iI had him do a side job back in the day and ended up with a fix and a bit of the kind of,,,, what does it matter kind of debate. The solution was to move the ground wire but more thassn a true technical question in that sense I wonder why and what the difference and then finding out that maybe the inspector was right and this led to why.
I tried to read code in my early 20's but that didnt take and didnt get back to it till,,, I see my book is 2002 and bought it to follow forums, was a big deal and at the time lots of guys studying for masters and punch lining code, was kind of easy to follow without bust arse study. Couple of them were master inspectors and on the board even. I was slow on the uptake but I kind of get some of it but am accutely aware of what I didnt know that I didnt know that I didnt know or thought I knew and didnt and make a couple of those crucial aspects a reflex today from sheer repetition and check list.
This goes for knowing inspectors too. They got those decorators that stage the sales, I got the same thing for inspectors. Grounds and bonds sized correctly, box of gfci sitting there as well as a couple boxes staples and box connectors, crap he seen missing a 1000 times, bushings on large pipe adapters etc. Securely mounted with good design, simple fitting.
I did a building and got a final a while back. I was about 5 minutes behind the inspector and he was already filling out the sticker when I got there. He been there and dunn it and could tell from the car. I got a lot of other problems in life but inspecion is easy for me. Insurance guy looks first thing and sees any PTO gards and shields in place and no exposed belts, all pipe wiring, UL heating, some fire ext and they dont even blink at the rest.

[Sberry]

Ya,,, one wou8ld think the lack of wings or a rudder would make the difference obvious but maybe that is confusing. I have met a couple engineers that literally cant use a screwdriver or common nail hammer. They are not infirm, just been academic all the life and can use a pencil just fine.. They are the type that wanna turn a new leaf in retirement and find it frustrating sometimes. They can however see interference I got no clue, I trial and error etc.
But they can seem to find a fly by night contractor to build the retirement home.

[whtbaron]

There's an "engineer" over at the RV forum ..... He went on to say "something like that would never be allowed on a boat"

I'm sure the Titanic had many such safeguards.