Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Originally Posted by Freebirdwelds
Exactly, I've been using this system for over 45 years. I've built more precise builds on saw horses and the floor than I have a table.
I never seen this till I come to the internet. Was on a nuke a year,,, never saw one, they use a big ole chunk of plate on saw horses in the fab shops.
I looked at that thing in the vid,,, it loos pretty but I would never build that and certainly not cut it all with a grinder. All that crap looks pretty but that would be a miserable pos to work on. Some of these ideas should come with some disclaimers,,,, I dont care what it cost should be one, I got a dozen benches and build them as a hobby should be another. I like the one lis hads in case I ever wanna clamp a tube out inb the middle. 99% tyhe stuff a hobby guy does after the bench is a simple piece to another, cant really remember last time I built a complex piece and I do this pretty much every day.
This is a first time builder and my bet it ends up with a cover sheet after he finds out what a pain in the arse this will be to work on. (one in the vid)
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
I bid on a job, the only spec was top sizes and they wanted the legs tube. They were a bunch of idiots but I wasnt low price and even those dopes could se the obvious difference in design. I came up with modular system so I could use typical parts and change length. Only reason I used tube on the legs was they wanted it at the start or the whole thing would have been angle which the bracing was. I built 200 or so, piles them half a dozen or more a time on the truck. No miters, all gang cut on band saw at the yard and tops sheared.
I was slumming from fab shop to fab shop way back, got hired on and first thing they want a bench. We get some idea of size and talk to the steel yard and all,,, so,,,, the last one they build they have "ole Tony" do. On top of turning steel in to scrap and them fawning over how many grinding wheels he used etc and only took two weeks to polish a turd. It was pretty enough but terrible to work from.
They really stop and note when it was on its feet and could be used at the end of the day.
Company owners often the worst, they drag crap back they couldnt resist
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
The fireball guy has a great business model. Thats really good.
It's been perfected for market, it's not totally original. First time seen/done it was 1980 building some huge door jambs in cement plant.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Nothing really wrong with the tables and all that stuff. It pays to have some perspective though so a guy doesnt get hung with an anchor,,, if he cares, if not ok too. Its ok to do as long as a guy wants it, got no problem with that, only issue I think about is,,, as a fabricator having worked on 50 benches, maybe more is any of this something I would care about or end up using in the end. We spliced a 5x5 tube the other day and use a short chunk of angle, 3 common clamps and a little square and it came out straighter there than the rest of the tube.
GrANted, there are a few fab shops work to hi level of accuracy but most of the worlds welding work is done over a crate. It might5 seem in concept it would be so much easier, night and day difference but I cant think of anything I build in the last 30 years would have been helped by a better bench.
Some of the most accurat work we ever do,,, combination square, torpedo level, string, plumb bob, tape measure, in some cases feeler gages.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Typical stuff like this,,, none of it a factor. A hole I actually needed for some job, could be closed. I put 3 in when I built it for something and used 1 since and drilled one other for a routine jig along the end.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
When I do this use that string method but build all upside down starting with the plate, then the long members and put the legs on and weld the fugger on, not from one end to another but some short modest welds. Can even hide it inside and around the legs warp a little less, in the end doesnt mean much. But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I am sure we can find a "better" more complicated way if we try hard enough. Saw one on a forum,,, was titled "simple bench:" I thought I got to see this. Turns out,,, simple is 2 months work,,, I quit counting at 80 pieces and still some to go and all but 13 of them do nothing. Its nice, the workmanship, well finished, was a great hobby and kept a guy out of the bar.
If it makes a guy feel better about himself, if it improves his self image and makes him feel more handsome then thats great too but as a fabricator will trade 2 or 3 of those for a good workwise area with practical bench with overhand and at least one square corner. Some toe room without running in to a bunch of junks on the legs. This is another reason for overhang.
I want a bar for the clamps, shelf underneath and hangers for hammers and some adjustables.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Originally Posted by jousley
At least I have flexibility now - and am not worried about making an error.
Thanks again, and if you think about anything else I need to know - let me know
J
Just make sure you use cutting oil or lube with the annular cutter. They are expensive , but if lubed properly will last for hundreds of holes. Not lubed - they will burn up pretty quick.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
OK folks - you mentioned to hit you back as I made progress. I got the table top today and started stripping the mill scale off of one side. My intention is to strip it and then paint the underside, flip the table, weld, strip and then proceed to the next phase: ie. mag drill and holes if I can straighten out the table top. 2 things:
1) 2 hours later and 4 scotchbrite stripping pads with the angle grinder - still not even close to bare metal. This scale is tough. Is there any more efficient way of tackling this? I was thinking I could spray the top with vinegar and let it set over night - but I assume it would evaporate in a few hours. Or do I just grit my teeth and use 20 stripping wheels over 6 hours? on each side.
2) I got a bit of a potato chip shape on this top - the sides are bowing down - maybe 1/8-1/4" on the worst spots. When I flip it over (top side up), the bow will be on the ends facing up... which I assume is ideal, as I think it would be easier to clamp down. So - what is the best way to deal with this? If I clamp down the sides, and measure the flatness - if there is a low spot in the middle - how would I tackle this?
Trying to grab some info to think about - while i'm stripping down the mill scale over the weekend. Let me know any thoughts you have for this next step.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Why take the scale off? It prevents rust if it is thick enough. Personally I think this is a waste of time for you. I wouldn't paint it either. Also it is best practice to bolt the top of a welding table to its frame/legs. That way you can flip the plate over when one side becomes pitted and worn down enough. I like to use counter sunk bolts. I would definitely NOT weld it on. Bolts in the corners with shims anywhere you need to raise the surface up ought to get you close. But bear in mind that something like a Build Pro table is going to be flat to within say 20 or 30 thousandths of an inch across a several foot span (or less). You are not going to get that plate anywhere near that flat. Think about what your tolerances will be for the projects you are welding up by clamping to that table. If you end up with a 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch of variation from end to end I think you will be lucky. Can you tolerate that kind of variance in your projects? I am not sure I could. But for me the answer wasn't to get the table flatter, it was to not clamp to the table. Just something to consider before you spend a ton of time drilling hundreds of holes.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
I have built 300 benches, never bolted one on, never checked one for true flat, not really, Most steel projects are relatively one simple piece to another and measured with a tape rather than a mic. I was going to mention the scale,,, never cleaned it off for one either and certainly didnt sand and paint the other side.
All this is ok, its a hobby I get that but its also time to learn a bit about what matters with this type of work unless you want to be a compulsive mechanical masturbator.
I lost some stuff, trying to find a picture to a couple. I express this position in these threads due to a couple things. 1st,,, even some great fabricators and shop owners do not have vast experience, doesnt make them good and they may be better or better biz peop-le, lots of factors but I been at this a while, have worked on **** spreaders and nukes, been thru a few fab shops and almost NOINE of this stuff matt5ers to me as a fabricator when I got to hit the steel. When I got to stand at a bench and work from it most of it is a distraction.
Others entitled to opinion,,, I personally dont want the holes and those clamps go with them. All they do is clamp down and all that custom hardware I can do without, got enough stuff to take care of as it is. I understand some shops find it useful, I get that but for general its more trouble than its worth and often comes at expense of stuff I would need more, cant have 2 many 11R and I can clam most all of it with common stuff that can be used in all positions.
Another thing, guys with distinct fab shops are in another position, 4 or 4 guys with welding flying constant probably not functioning as multi trade but our benches get used for it all.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Mill scale is a poor conductor and can cause stray sparking and arc strikes on your work. I removed all mill scale off mine and applied cold chemical blue to control surface rust well. Get you a Walter scale remover disc, it makes short work of mill scale. You can shine up the surface afterwards with a fine flap disc.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Welding spatter sticks to that stuff, guy spills a coffee or some dirt and the grinding dross down thru the holes, the OP hasnt even got it built and worried about rust.
Some things a guy will improve with experience. I used to have spatter everywhere, today its rather rare for much to stick,,, used to need different grinders to get me unstuck from welding myself in a corner, today, not very often, miter only on occasion, all kinds of things that concern a guy starting out.
I like it simple and when its too refined from this "perfect" build,,, about 5 minutes in I wanna change it and want it to be an evolution instead of some fussy investment I scared to hit, drill or anything else to. A hobby guy runs out of real projects fast,,, and what I mean by that is,,, when youy setting it up a guy has visions of all this stuff he gonna do and during this phase it seems that way, once he gets early garage stuff built most of it slows down. An example,,, when I was building and wiring my storage we used outlets and cords for the tools, seemed like we might never have enough and needed them everwhere, once done 95% of it could be done with a cord.
This is the difference between hobby and pro,,,, the hobby may be as good a fabricator or better but look at the hundreds of dings on this top,,, 1000's of jobs, used every day and often by more than one person, usually variations of several projects in a day.
If we even thought there was a way to squeeze some more work out of it, do it better, make it easier that didnt take more work than the way it is we would do it even if we were busy. We used,,, then added the features that were causing us grief, even maint and clean up considered.
Some people have more problems with flat and straight than others, I see sqaure flat and level well while my old helper needed a level tool to see a 4 ft handrail post is 2 ft out of plumb. He just cant build well due to that.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Originally Posted by Woznme
Plates tacked to frame, no warping. Underside sprayed with cold gal. Very happy with it.
Sure that is a thing of beauty and you are a specialist with continuous stream of work. Its the mechanic though vs the bench, that particular piece could be assembled on any bench a guy could clamp to even wood for that matter. You also working in place the cost of the tools, the setups all that rather irrelevant. Like a nascar team,,, snap on tools not gonna bust them but most of the time a Sears wrench works fine.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
I'm hearing you. Pipework I've always done on pipe stands with clamps, level and squares.
One time I was workng in a shop that had a precision table. Found it invaluable for clocking flanges on lobster backs, so I resolved to build one for my own shop. So now I use it alot when I'm in my shop.
That's why I'd never discourage a bloke from building one and doing as good a job as he can even when it's not really necessary.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
I am for that, I think they would get better more fitting job to start simple, see where it goes then build etc. I been at this long enuf done it a lot of ways, really botched a few things cause I jump right in and go for broke up front. I can think of a couple and they end up still not used. I am looking at it as just starting out,,, what was important,,, what I would do different.
I am glad I didnt follow my shop plans so to speak, how I was gonna do it all etc. I would have ended up with a pile of steel and no room and had bunch of bench stuff in the way I would have never used.
To tell the truth I do lust a bit for a new top to customize a bit after I see some here and if it would work any better or make more money I would. It kind of reaches a plateau. As much as I tailor I have had to stop a bit and have a remod or all of a sudden some part makes sense. I was on the way wheeling out and gonna start another shelf, as I wheel it past on the way realize its just about what I was gonna build,,, wow, free and fast.
I had an ephiphany as realize I had about 20 sq fr in my paint booth didnt do anything since the stuff was set there 20 yrs earlier,,, out it went and on the way both big pieces got repurposed in to exactly what we needed.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
This one on its 3rd rev. Not so well finished a guy is scared to fix or change. Its pretty close now where it will remain. My revs are getting smaller and less, only occasionally have a wtf moment and wonder why/what?
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
If a guy starts to build it all right away doesnt get the chance to find it free,,, ha,, not that anyone is likely to give up that kind of bench but never know when parts and salvage come by. Cart given and that stand was old pipe threader and tacked a plate on it and it has about a dozen different setups along the way, some we re use. There is actually a drain hole, someone missed it,,,ha. I set it on the engine stand for this job.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
OK, I am learning here.
1) I am more than happy not to remove the remaining mill. I saw a couple youtube vids and each had removed the mill - so I thought it was standard. I will just remove it on the top, in small areas for the ground clamp.
2) I also didn't know that the top is usually bolted down. If I put the bolts to the outside corners as close as I can, do you think it will take care of the bowing up issue on the ends? If you had a bow in the middle of the table top, would you put install it bow side down, and bolt down the ends for flat? or bow side up and countersink bolts in the middle, for flat?
3) Also, it's only a 3/8" thick table. I don' see how I would be able to countersink any bolts - I may just have to have some bolt heads protruding, unless anyone has another idea? or I clamp it to as flat as I can and weld it?
4) you mentioned shims. What would I use, where would I get some thin metal shims?
The table is 4' wide, so I do want holes to be able to clamp in the middle of the table. still planning on that.
Waiting on some responses, before I get to the next steps.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Originally Posted by jousley
OK, I am learning here.
1) I am more than happy not to remove the remaining mill. I saw a couple youtube vids and each had removed the mill - so I thought it was standard. I will just remove it on the top, in small areas for the ground clamp.
2) I also didn't know that the top is usually bolted down. If I put the bolts to the outside corners as close as I can, do you think it will take care of the bowing up issue on the ends? If you had a bow in the middle of the table top, would you put install it bow side down, and bolt down the ends for flat? or bow side up and countersink bolts in the middle, for flat?
3) Also, it's only a 3/8" thick table. I don' see how I would be able to countersink any bolts - I may just have to have some bolt heads protruding, unless anyone has another idea? or I clamp it to as flat as I can and weld it?
4) you mentioned shims. What would I use, where would I get some thin metal shims?
The table is 4' wide, so I do want holes to be able to clamp in the middle of the table. still planning on that.
Waiting on some responses, before I get to the next steps.
Thanks as always,
This style are for countersinking.
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Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Almost 200# of steel in that top one. Walk in pricing a while back almost 400 and still got to put it together although a guy could do it different.
I like some of the stuff Louie built. The main thing,,, not saying I would do every piece exact but a big thing,,, and it helps when every piece isnt a painful tooth pulling expense is its practical and well suited and economically designed to the point he could sell a piece without taking a big hit cause he got hundreds in materials in every stand.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
Not that it is super important but the history of welding is about economy, if it wasnt for that it would have stalled, only recently before the hobby it is as people got the money for tools and they got cheaper. The cost it takes to make a quality weld has dropped 50% in the last 10 years minus the recent inflation. Which,,,, while it effects super poor by our standards doesnt add a deal breaker to economy tools.
Its a plus if the hobby has some payback. You really aint got to fix a lot any more to recoupe few grand or even less. Wrenches, some power tools now so good they last so long and can really earn their keep iun a single incident. Used to be a marginally usable battery drill,,, 1990 or so the blue oine was 150 and the best 2x that in 2000+ and now do 50% of the work with a 50$ Walmart drill and 30$ grinder.
Re: Ordering a Welding Table top - warpage, rust... need some info
If your table has a bow in it, it's possible to straighten it with heat shrinks. Some guys use arc, but I prefer to use acetylene. I'm sure there are lots of You tubes on the subject, but basically I heat a spot about the size of a dime at a time on the high side until it's blue ( or red if you need more shrink) and cool it with a damp rag. It forces the grains in the metal out into the surrounding metal, and shrinks back when it contracts on cooling. Works much faster on sheet metal than thick sheets.
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Sberry is very opinionated on what he thinks a welding table should be like (no holes) and how a newer person should make one. Doesn't make him right and his opinion is just as valid or not as everyone else here.
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