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Thread: Spray arc massive failure

  1. #26
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    I think it's nothing to do with the gas, and everything to do with the 6010 root pass. MIG doesn't allow the impurities and hydrogen to escape easily. MIG likes clean, high quality metal. Even a bit of trapped slag would do what you see there.
    That may be the problem, while I was having difficulty with welds that were a mig root, the 6010 root welds were way worse

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  2. #27
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    I think it's nothing to do with the gas, and everything to do with the 6010 root pass. MIG doesn't allow the impurities and hydrogen to escape easily. MIG likes clean, high quality metal. Even a bit of trapped slag would do what you see there.
    if that is my problem will the dual shield give me the same issues? Should I just stick weld it all?

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  3. #28
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMan23 View Post
    if that is my problem will the dual shield give me the same issues? Should I just stick weld it all?

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    Depends on the wire. Some will be more tolerant of impurities than others.

    MIG welding straight over a previous pass without grinding will give you problems, as will further passes over porosity without grinding right back to clean metal. It's just about impossible to "cover up" porosity, it will just keep coming through.

    Sometimes you can get away with welding over crap if the amps and gun angle and everything is "just right" but it's a crapshoot, it's not predictable.

    The only truly predictable way to get high quality MIG welds is to have everything down to clean shiny bright metal.
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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  5. #29
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    If you look at my old posts you'll see that my experience with Dual Shield is a love/hate relationship. Right now, I'm in love again. I'm running a .045" wire made for 75% gas.
    In the past I've had problems ranging from porosity, wormholes, bird nesting. Right now, it's under control.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  6. #30
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Phil, what machine are you using to weld this? Can we get more pictures of what it is your welding?
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  7. #31
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    First try with dual shield, it's Lincoln outer shield, 71 elite looks great, should have success with this

    Running 75/25 at about 30sch

    I'm brushing the steel till it shines, and nothing think i may have wasted my money here.

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  8. #32
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Phil, what machine are you using to weld this? Can we get more pictures of what it is your welding?
    Esab mm280, it's a great welder, lots of available power.

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  9. #33
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMan23 View Post
    First try with dual shield, it's Lincoln outer shield, 71 elite looks great, should have success with this

    Running 75/25 at about 30sch

    I'm brushing the steel till it shines, and nothing think i may have wasted my money here.

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    Damn.

    Me thinks You got a bad bottle of gas
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  10. #34
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Well this wire sucks, it sucks so bad, there's these weird channels in the finished bead, that and just outright terrible porosity, I'm not much of a welder I realize now, I'm good at stick welding but I can't mig weld for crap..

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  11. #35
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMan23 View Post
    First try with dual shield, it's Lincoln outer shield, 71 elite looks great, should have success with this

    Running 75/25 at about 30sch

    I'm brushing the steel till it shines, and nothing think i may have wasted my money here.

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    I am confused by this. In one sentence you say looks great, then in the last sentence you say you wasted your money? I am guessing its not working out for you but if I am misunderstanding, please correct me.

    Those pictures look like you aren't getting any gas OR you have the wrong polarity. Outer shield elite 71 can run on straight CO2 perfectly fine, so I doubt if it is a bad bottle of gas, but anything is possible. You need to be DC electrode positive (which it seems you have). I would run 350 ipm and 26 volts to start (assuming you are running 045 wire). Don't forget that dual shield requires a longer contact tip to work distance of 3/4 of an inch.
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  12. #36
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMan23 View Post
    Well this wire sucks, it sucks so bad, there's these weird channels in the finished bead, that and just outright terrible porosity, I'm not much of a welder I realize now, I'm good at stick welding but I can't mig weld for crap..

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    sounds like worm tracks. I got porosity and worm tracks while using duel shield. It sucks and as said welding over it just exacerbates the problem. I was having problems welding T joints. One side would weld fine but the other side would draw out the crud left under the T joint. No real way to clean it out either. It was super frustrating.

    Donít be so hard on your self. Sounds like you are looking to put down as much metal as possible as fast as possible. Will you have to worry about heat warping or are you bouncing around to reduce warping. Starts and stops can potentially be problematic areas.
    Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo. Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.

  13. #37
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    The other thing to consider is you shouldn't be welding outdoors or in a strong breeze, it blows away the gas. If you are outdoors, try to erect a wind block. Also the lincoln wires need 40-50 CFH of gas flow.
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    I am confused by this. In one sentence you say looks great, then in the last sentence you say you wasted your money? I am guessing its not working out for you but if I am misunderstanding, please correct me.

    Those pictures look like you aren't getting any gas OR you have the wrong polarity. Outer shield elite 71 can run on straight CO2 perfectly fine, so I doubt if it is a bad bottle of gas, but anything is possible. You need to be DC electrode positive (which it seems you have). I would run 350 ipm and 26 volts to start (assuming you are running 045 wire). Don't forget that dual shield requires a longer contact tip to work distance of 3/4 of an inch.
    It was sarcasm, I'm just trying to maintain my sanity here while I figure it out, sorry for the confusion, sarcasm doesn't translate well through text.

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  15. #39
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by N2 Welding View Post
    sounds like worm tracks. I got porosity and worm tracks while using duel shield. It sucks and as said welding over it just exacerbates the problem. I was having problems welding T joints. One side would weld fine but the other side would draw out the crud left under the T joint. No real way to clean it out either. It was super frustrating.

    Don’t be so hard on your self. Sounds like you are looking to put down as much metal as possible as fast as possible. Will you have to worry about heat warping or are you bouncing around to reduce warping. Starts and stops can potentially be problematic areas.

    This is why I recommended Fabshield 21B. As long as you don't need high charpy v-notch requirements, seismic requirements, x-ray requirements and the like, it is plenty strong for most applications, and it is dead simple. it has a 91K PSI tensile strength and a 62K PSI yield strength, which is more than mild steel has. And you won't have worm tracks.
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  16. #40
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Do you have a Mig nozzle flow meter to check your gas flow?

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  17. #41
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    I think i may have found the problem, years ago I bought a little hand held flowmeter, and I tested it on the mig torch and I was only getting about 6sch

    I then looked at the oring in the euro torch connection, and realized it was mostly gone
    Notice the worn out o-ring, I wiggled the torch connection and I'd see the gas flow go up and down, I put a new oring in and now I'm getting about 20sch so I'll test it out now ans see what happens.



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  19. #42
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Ha! Imagine that . Hope that’s all the problem was. It did look exactly like no gas coverage.

    One O ring is almost gone while the one further to the back looks dry rotted and cracked. I’d replace both while you are at it but definitely the front one missing most of the O ring.
    Last edited by N2 Welding; 1 Week Ago at 11:20 AM.
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  20. #43
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    So it seems to do better but I'm still having random issues

    Sometimes it looks beautiful, sometimes tons of porosity



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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Also this is all indoors

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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    When I spray I use either 95/5 argon oxygen or trimix 89 argon, 8.5 CO2 and 2.5 oxygen.
    The reason I use tri mix is because it is easier to get in a customer owned cylinder(even in an 80cf) that 95/5,85/15,90/10 etc.
    Tri mix takes 26.5-27 volts and 450 IPM to spray and sprays very nice

  23. #46
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMan23 View Post
    So it seems to do better but I'm still having random issues

    Sometimes it looks beautiful, sometimes tons of porosity


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    Those are called worm tracks. These are often caused by excess voltage or an incorrect contact tip to work distance. You need about 3/4 of an inch of contact tip to work distance (longer than standard hardwire MIG). if you are correct on that parameter, then try reducing the voltage a bit.
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  24. #47
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Lemme lower the voltage and check how it does

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  25. #48
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Perhaps you wire needs drying? How long you had it?

  26. #49
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by tapwelder View Post
    Perhaps you wire needs drying? How long you had it?
    Brand new spool,

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  27. #50
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    Re: Spray arc massive failure

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Those are called worm tracks. These are often caused by excess voltage or an incorrect contact tip to work distance. You need about 3/4 of an inch of contact tip to work distance (longer than standard hardwire MIG). if you are correct on that parameter, then try reducing the voltage a bit.
    Thank you, I lowered toe voltage and now it's working great, I appreciate all the tips, seems the gas issue was the main issue, then the voltage



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