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Thread: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

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    Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    So at work we carry a small torch tote for rescue operations. It constantly loses the cut for no reason regardless of your travel speed and you need to start a new puddle and continue on. Itís nearly impossible to make a cut of any length without breaks in it.

    Unfortunately i donít have a picture on hand, itís just a small O2 bottle with standard regular and a yellow mapp cylinder with a preset regulator.

    We only carry one tip off hand I think itís a 00. Itís always kept clean.


    It seems to be absolutely crap for making cuts. I know a lot of people use propane and love it, I assume this would be comparable.

    Years back they carried a small acetylene version and it cut far smoother but the powers that be decided it was unsafe to keep acetylene on the trucks. With the acetylene version (we still have an old one laying around) i can make very clean cuts no problem, so Iím assuming mapp just sucks but maybe someone has insight.
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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    I found the regulators on those small sets are crap with flow rates bouncing around. Also the small tip doesn't allow enough heat for cutting operations even though mapp is supposed to have a hotter flame. Those small sets are really meant for brazing work.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Seems to me that if it's for rescue operations, carrying acetylene ought to be warranted.

    On ships they carry oxy-acet so they can quickly cut the hawser if the tow sinks, to prevent dragging the tug to the bottom....

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by StandarDyne View Post
    Seems to me that if it's for rescue operations, carrying acetylene ought to be warranted.

    On ships they carry oxy-acet so they can quickly cut the hawser if the tow sinks, to prevent dragging the tug to the bottom....
    We also carry a large compliment of saws and hydraulic cutting tools. As well as a petrogen torch and Broco arc air.

    For how seldom used all the above is they don’t want acetylene on the trucks i guess.
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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    I remember when plasma cutting first became popular in rescue circles here around 1990. Everyone ditched the oxyfuel for a plasma cutter. That being said, setting up an oxy mapp or oxy propane torch for cutting is a lot different than setting up oxyacetylene. With alternative fuel gasses you need a specific cutting tip designed for that gas. The acetylene tip won't work well with MAPP or propane. Also notice how loud the flame is once you have enough fuel flow.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Do have a Mapp gas tip?
    It not the same acetylene or propane tips.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    So at work we carry a small torch tote for rescue operations. It constantly loses the cut for no reason regardless of your travel speed and you need to start a new puddle and continue on. Itís nearly impossible to make a cut of any length without breaks in it.

    Unfortunately i donít have a picture on hand, itís just a small O2 bottle with standard regular and a yellow mapp cylinder with a preset regulator.

    We only carry one tip off hand I think itís a 00. Itís always kept clean.


    It seems to be absolutely crap for making cuts. I know a lot of people use propane and love it, I assume this would be comparable.

    Years back they carried a small acetylene version and it cut far smoother but the powers that be decided it was unsafe to keep acetylene on the trucks. With the acetylene version (we still have an old one laying around) i can make very clean cuts no problem, so Iím assuming mapp just sucks but maybe someone has insight.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    So at work we carry a small torch tote for rescue operations. It constantly loses the cut for no reason regardless of your travel speed and you need to start a new puddle and continue on. It’s nearly impossible to make a cut of any length without breaks in it.

    Unfortunately i don’t have a picture on hand, it’s just a small O2 bottle with standard regular and a yellow mapp cylinder with a preset regulator.

    We only carry one tip off hand I think it’s a 00. It’s always kept clean.


    It seems to be absolutely crap for making cuts. I know a lot of people use propane and love it, I assume this would be comparable.

    Years back they carried a small acetylene version and it cut far smoother but the powers that be decided it was unsafe to keep acetylene on the trucks. With the acetylene version (we still have an old one laying around) i can make very clean cuts no problem, so I’m assuming mapp just sucks but maybe someone has insight.
    MAP gas you are using is propylene with propane added.

    MAPP gas is composed of methylacetylene, propadiene and propane mainly.



    It isn't MAPP gas you have. It is MAP/PRO and a scam. They quit making MAPP many years ago(1980 I believe).

    The MAP/PRO was a way to put it in yellow bottles like MAPP used to be and call it almost the same name to make people think they are getting some special high heat gas.

    MAP gas is just propylene with some propane and only slightly better than propane.

    MAP-Pro gas burns at a temperature of 3,730 degrees Fahrenheit, while propane burns at 3,600 F. Your paying twice the price of propane for 130į hotter. Lol.

    It sounds like the tip and design wasn't meant for cutting the thickness your trying to cut. If you had a real OXY/PROPANE setup even with small bottles it could probably do what your trying to do with ease.
    Last edited by danielplace; 07-07-2022 at 02:07 PM.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    MAP gas you are using is propylene with propane added.

    MAPP gas is composed of methylacetylene, propadiene and propane mainly.

    It isn't MAPP gas you have. It is MAP/PRO and a scam. They quit making MAPP many years ago(1980 I believe).

    The MAP/PRO was a way to put it in yellow bottles like MAPP used to be and call it almost the same name to make people think they are getting some special high heat gas.

    MAP gas is just propylene with some propane and only slightly better than propane.

    MAP-Pro gas burns at a temperature of 3,730 degrees Fahrenheit, while propane burns at 3,600 F. Your paying twice the price of propane for 130į hotter. Lol.

    It sounds like the tip and design wasn't meant for cutting the thickness your trying to cut. If you had a real OXY/PROPANE setup even with small bottles it could probably do what your trying to do with ease.

    You’re correct it is MAP pro.

    And the tip is probably for the torch setup, as we have probably 400 torches.

    But they give everyone one tip, expecting it to one size fits all.
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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    If they would just give you a real burglar bottle setup. Even if they swapped out the acetylene tank for propane you could have full size regulators, hoses and torches with many choices for propane tips that could actually do some work. We are only talking $1000 max times 400 of them. Just shy of a half a million bucks.

    Is everyone complaining of poor performance with their torch setups. Are they used very often ? I know your the fire department but I guess you wouldn't want to start a fire nonetheless so the uses must be limited by that factor at least.

    What kind of jobs are they used for and did the setup ever work properly for those jobs ?
    Last edited by danielplace; 07-07-2022 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    I have been out of the game for decades, but the only time I ever saw the torch used in a rescue (or the plasma cutter for that matter) was when someone was impaled on something. You wouldn't think it happens very often, but I have handled 3 cases personally in my 10 years. An incident of someone falling on rebar, the unistrut from a stop sign that came through a window in a crash, and one where a guy was trying to scale a wrought iron fence and got impaled on top of a picket that had a fancy spade shaped finial on top of it.
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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    I used oxy-propane on a machine torch for over a decade.
    The torch never lost its cut one time, that the tip was not dirty.

    Since I had the setup for the machine torch,, I had a hand torch, in case a scrap piece needed cut.

    Cutting with oxy-fuel is VERY tricky,, you need a VERY steady hand,, the heat to keep the cut going comes from the oxidation of the steel.
    The MAPP/propane has very little part in keeping the cut going.
    That is why the machine torch was so far more successful.

    Acetylene adds much more heat to keep the cut going.

    I do not think the OP's results vary from normal at all.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    I would say you have preheat issues if you have intermittent cut loss. I have never cut
    Mapp. However, the cutting process is a chemical reaction that create heat after a certain point so, If you are not loosing preheat from torch angle or distance from work then that may be your intermittent issue. In theory you should be able to cut with just oxygen once the oxidation reaction begins. Perhaps,

    Mapp required closer proximity to the work than acetylene or like propane it may not be as focused heat is the inner cone as in the outer envelope of the flame?

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    [QUOTE=tapwelder;8871797]I would say you have preheat issues if you have intermittent cut loss. I have never cut
    Mapp. However, the cutting process is a chemical reaction that create heat after a certain point so, If you are not loosing preheat from torch angle or distance from work then that may be your intermittent issue. In theory you should be able to cut with just oxygen once the oxidation reaction begins. By preheat, I am referring to the preheat jets. Not preheating the metal?

    Perhaps, Mapp required closer proximity to the work than acetylene or like propane it may not be as focused heat is the inner cone as in the outer envelope of the flame?

    Is there a Mapp cutting top?

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    So at work we carry a small torch tote for rescue operations. It constantly loses the cut for no reason regardless of your travel speed and you need to start a new puddle and continue on. It’s nearly impossible to make a cut of any length without breaks in it.

    Unfortunately i don’t have a picture on hand, it’s just a small O2 bottle with standard regular and a yellow mapp cylinder with a preset regulator.

    We only carry one tip off hand I think it’s a 00. It’s always kept clean.


    It seems to be absolutely crap for making cuts. I know a lot of people use propane and love it, I assume this would be comparable.

    Years back they carried a small acetylene version and it cut far smoother but the powers that be decided it was unsafe to keep acetylene on the trucks. With the acetylene version (we still have an old one laying around) i can make very clean cuts no problem, so I’m assuming mapp just sucks but maybe someone has insight.
    This whole thing smell's like fish bait left over from last week. If stations struggle with something this piddly,I hate to imagine what things look like with keeping reliable large tools and equipment. Here's how simple this is to fix. Invite 1,2,3 oxy/fuel equipment reps or whatever # the city requires when bids are put out. Tell them your criteria (size,weight,leingeth of cut ect) and allow them to demonstrate
    their version in competition with your department's best hand using the old oxy/acty rig everyone loved so well. Winner gets the contract to furnish torches and train personnel how to use it. With over 400 kits up for grabs plus future replacements,mfgrs will jump at the opportunity to show what their rig can do. Your chief needs to be taken behind the woodshed for allowing this to continue without any attempt for resolution in the works. How absolutely absurd.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by tapwelder View Post
    I would say you have preheat issues if you have intermittent cut loss. I have never cut
    Mapp. However, the cutting process is a chemical reaction that create heat after a certain point so, If you are not loosing preheat from torch angle or distance from work then that may be your intermittent issue. In theory you should be able to cut with just oxygen once the oxidation reaction begins. Perhaps,

    Mapp required closer proximity to the work than acetylene or like propane it may not be as focused heat is the inner cone as in the outer envelope of the flame?
    Another consideration is that small bottles with their little regulators feeding propane/mixes will, depending on angle and motion, sometimes feed liquid, altering the preheat flame and maybe reducing available cutting oxygen.
    Putting on a demonstration, cutting similar materials to those you encounter in real-life and comparing that to using oxy-acetylene, should convince the administrators. If that doesn't work, make a video of the demonstration and leak it to the local media....Mayors, Supervisors, et all don't like getting calls after residents hear about such bad decisions that endanger lives.

    I probably have 25+ of the old 14 oz. genuine Mapp cylinders rescued from the Hazardous Waste Warehouse. Didn't know they were that old.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax View Post
    This whole thing smell's like fish bait left over from last week. If stations struggle with something this piddly,I hate to imagine what things look like with keeping reliable large tools and equipment. Here's how simple this is to fix. Invite 1,2,3 oxy/fuel equipment reps or whatever # the city requires when bids are put out. Tell them your criteria (size,weight,leingeth of cut ect) and allow them to demonstrate
    their version in competition with your department's best hand using the old oxy/acty rig everyone loved so well. Winner gets the contract to furnish torches and train personnel how to use it. With over 400 kits up for grabs plus future replacements,mfgrs will jump at the opportunity to show what their rig can do. Your chief needs to be taken behind the woodshed for allowing this to continue without any attempt for resolution in the works. How absolutely absurd.
    Exactly . This existing situation is what happens when pencil pushers who only know enough to be dangerous get involved. Clean cuts aren't needed here, just a quick sever job. Go to a number one 1 or possibly a number 2 tip with enough flow rate to do the job and hack away. The using mapp over acetylene is also rather absurd when you consider the other revalant dangers involved regarding fire or rescue situations. Any decent welding supply rep would be more than happy to sell a complete working solution.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    .... one where a guy was trying to scale a wrought iron fence and got impaled on top of a picket that had a fancy spade shaped finial on top of it.
    I'm still cringing and you may be responsible for a shrinkage of my private parts...
    The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    I'm still cringing and you may be responsible for a shrinkage of my private parts...
    Shrinking private parts before attempting to scale wrought iron picket fences is always recommended.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    I have been out of the game for decades, but the only time I ever saw the torch used in a rescue (or the plasma cutter for that matter) was when someone was impaled on something. You wouldn't think it happens very often, but I have handled 3 cases personally in my 10 years. An incident of someone falling on rebar, the unistrut from a stop sign that came through a window in a crash, and one where a guy was trying to scale a wrought iron fence and got impaled on top of a picket that had a fancy spade shaped finial on top of it.
    With the introduction of many cordless bandsaw and rebar cutting tools the torch for impalement isn’t really practical anymore.

    They have it more for heavy metal cutting in the event of a 9/11 type situation.
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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Yep. I figured as much. I mean I went to the fire academy in the 70's. SCBAs were basically optional back then.
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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    I uses to use a lot Mapp gas for cutting and if use wrong tip you loss the puddle.
    Victor makes about 5 different tips for cutting gas.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    I'm still cringing and you may be responsible for a shrinkage of my private parts...

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    I'm still cringing and you may be responsible for a shrinkage of my private parts...
    We actually had a young girl get impaled on wrought iron the other day. She tried to hop the fence, slipped and it went into her calf up to her ankle.

    This is the torch every company in New York City carries. I actually tried to use it today to cut some pieces for a project here out of 1/4” and it was so frustrating i took the piece home to plasma cut it.

    Any time I’ve used an acetylene style setup, i have no issues with maintaining a clean continuous cut so I can only assume it’s the mapp gap setup.
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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    We actually had a young girl get impaled on wrought iron the other day. She tried to hop the fence, slipped and it went into her calf up to her ankle.

    This is the torch every company in New York City carries. I actually tried to use it today to cut some pieces for a project here out of 1/4” and it was so frustrating i took the piece home to plasma cut it.

    Any time I’ve used an acetylene style setup, i have no issues with maintaining a clean continuous cut so I can only assume it’s the mapp gap setup.
    Bending the hoses that much just below the fittings can't be good for them. Also, I'd bet the difference in heat content is highly significant between true MAPP (methyl acetylene) and whatever the propane/butane mix is that replaced it. Acetylene and its derivatives have an energetic triple bond and a better carbon to hydrogen ratio (less energy-consuming H2O produced).
    I also wouldn't expect a small tank like that to be able to consistently feed a torch that size. Might be interesting to try the torch being fed by a 5 gal. propane tank.

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    Last edited by Oldiron2; 07-16-2022 at 11:35 PM.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    The hoses at the torch end already look compromised. I think the problem could have a lot to do with the fact that a heavy duty torch was put on an extremely light duty set of bottles and regulators. That's a one piece straight cutting torch for full size cylinders that a serious fabrication shop would use. Then flashback arrestors were added. The tiny Map/Pro cylinder can keep up with the minimum flow required of the torch. Even the O2 probably only lasts about 5 minutes or so. Whoever thought that up has rocks in their head, especially if it's for emergencies that could save a life... and they're worried acetylene isn't safe. More likely to cause a fatality because it won't work when you need it. At least get a 5 or 10lb propane cylinder and a smaller torch and give yourself a chance. That set up is a joke!
    Last edited by Welder Dave; 07-17-2022 at 02:46 AM.

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    Re: Oxy-Mapp torch constantly loses puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldiron2 View Post
    Bending the hoses that much just below the fittings can't be good for them. Also, I'd bet the difference in heat content is highly significant between true MAPP (methyl acetylene) and whatever the propane/butane mix is that replaced it. Acetylene and its derivatives have an energetic triple bond and a better carbon to hydrogen ratio (less energy-consuming H2O produced).
    I also wouldn't expect a small tank like that to be able to consistently feed a torch that size. Might be interesting to try the torch being fed by a 5 gal. propane tank.

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    I think MAPP-Pro (MAP-Pro?) Is basically just propylene. It bothers me that they even sell it at MAP-Pro. It's just SLIGHTLY warmer propane! I bet the profit margin is HUGE! My MAPP torch gets fed a diet of propane and nothing else. If I need more heat than a propane torch, I step up to something more than MAPP...

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