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Thread: Get Bent

  1. #26
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldiron2 View Post
    If you can post a basic sketch of the machinery and maybe an enlarged sketch or two of the problem area, members here might have suggestions. I don't understand the part about two snatch blocks; are there two blocks pulling two pieces of the equipment together? Two blocks on one piece, pulling on both sides at the same time?
    Suppose you attached the block(s) with a short piece of heavy chain rather than solid linkage? Hard to guess when in the dark.
    I don't mean to be mean, but there's no real need for suggestions. I'm really just showing how a mistake can be made. A mistake made out of ignorance.

    It's an education on moving loads with pulleys that I wish I'd have gotten before I attempted to do what I'm doing.

    Hydraulics solved most of these issues modern day. I'm learning about stuff that used to be pertinent a century ago.

    Hell, I can still remember running an ancient cable operated end dump trailer when I was in my very early 20's. Even at that age, the damn trailer was probably already over 20yrs old

    Cables will always seek the straightest line they can attain, while under tension. And...........I failed to realize how important that was.

  2. #27
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    I don't mean to be mean, but there's no real need for suggestions. I'm really just showing how a mistake can be made. A mistake made out of ignorance.

    It's an education on moving loads with pulleys that I wish I'd have gotten before I attempted to do what I'm doing.

    Hydraulics solved most of these issues modern day. I'm learning about stuff that used to be pertinent a century ago.

    Hell, I can still remember running an ancient cable operated end dump trailer when I was in my very early 20's. Even at that age, the damn trailer was probably already over 20yrs old

    Cables will always seek the straightest line they can attain, while under tension. And...........I failed to realize how important that was.

    We can't see enough of the equipment to understand the whole situation, so there isn't much "education" being passed on.

    I have seen some of the old cable-operated farm and construction equipment; got my first look at some heavy stuff when they were channelizing the L.A. River through Van Nuys, a few blocks from where I lived, back when Disneyland first opened. Made governor parts for an 1890 era Case Steamer, got to drive the Best 60 a few times, have winched car parts out of a 200 foot deep canyon, used four snatch blocks to pull the outer 8" diameter gate post (set in concrete) back into position after the side of the road has slipped downhill due to heavy rains.
    Found some neat stuff in the deserts more than half a century ago, have acquired a few pieces since then, and have always been interested in the old stuff.

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  4. #28
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldiron2 View Post
    If you can post a basic sketch of the machinery and maybe an enlarged sketch or two of the problem area, members here might have suggestions. I don't understand the part about two snatch blocks; are there two blocks pulling two pieces of the equipment together? Two blocks on one piece, pulling on both sides at the same time?
    Suppose you attached the block(s) with a short piece of heavy chain rather than solid linkage? Hard to guess when in the dark.
    You're right. It was stupid not to show the overall setup. I'm just not with it these days.

    Name:  transport6.jpg
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Size:  214.2 KB Works nicely. I can raise the rake arms to 100% vertical. In practice one will have to have the rake wheels removed for highway transport, otherwise the rakes will interfere with each other.

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Size:  215.2 KB While a great idea, the swiveling winch needs to have a blocking bar to keep it from moving too far. You can see how the rope wants to bend around the drum/mechanism in order to make a straight pull under tension. Fixable with a few pieces of additional steel.

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Size:  241.8 KB The rope gets damaged going around that edge.

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Size:  193.1 KB Got a better pic of the other problem at the mast. The pulley doesn't swivel enough to allow the rope to feed in/out in a straight line. You can see how its damaged the rope.

    So...............I screwed up 2 things, but they're fixable. The math worked out right on the magnitude of force, and the multiplier effect caused by the vectors.......so overall, it's a success.

    All the pulleys, including those from McMaster, and Grainger, won't fit within the limited space.

    Only regret at this point was not getting a pic of the raise. I cycled it twice before I heard a loud pop. It was the rope strands separating.

  5. #29
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    Re: Get Bent

    Looks great
    Just needs paint 🎨.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldiron2 View Post
    We can't see enough of the equipment to understand the whole situation, so there isn't much "education" being passed on.

    I have seen some of the old cable-operated farm and construction equipment; got my first look at some heavy stuff when they were channelizing the L.A. River through Van Nuys, a few blocks from where I lived, back when Disneyland first opened. Made governor parts for an 1890 era Case Steamer, got to drive the Best 60 a few times, have winched car parts out of a 200 foot deep canyon, used four snatch blocks to pull the outer 8" diameter gate post (set in concrete) back into position after the side of the road has slipped downhill due to heavy rains.
    Found some neat stuff in the deserts more than half a century ago, have acquired a few pieces since then, and have always been interested in the old stuff.

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  6. #30
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    Re: Get Bent

    Sam,
    You probably already know this, but if you are making your own swiveling pulleys, don't forget to take into account the allowable bend radius of the cable.
    If you know the weight and forces, can you use a lower diameter or different type cable to get a smaller radius bend and subsequent pulley?
    IE, stainless cable versus zinc coated steel. Different wire and strand combinations.

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  7. #31
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    The rope gets damaged going around that edge.

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    As a temporary solution, might I suggest popping that pulley out of the housing and putting a radius on the inner corner? You've got a pretty sharp edge there, especially when the cable's under serious load. It might not be a sharp 90, but it's close enough for government work. If nothing else, rounding it over would certainly help stop it from cutting the wires. It'd at least get you through the time-crunch issue.

    I would also point out that you might have better luck switching to the modern winch ropes and soft shackles for your needs. They are as strong or stronger than steel gear, and far more flexible in the design. If you have a 4x4 shop around your town, it might be worth a look-see because you can make your own soft shackle with relative ease, and then get a couple of those doughnut-type snatch rings that are buttery smooth.



    They work wonders when you're pulling stuck vehicles out of axle-deep mud, so I have no doubt they'd work for your application. And a whole lot easier to deal with in general.

    Last edited by VaughnT; 08-07-2022 at 11:21 AM.

  8. #32
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    Re: Get Bent

    Rock climbing gear and ropes are also an option.
    Lightweight and strong as heck. But climbing gear is not cheap.

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  10. #33
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    Re: Get Bent

    Thinking about it some more, I'd take the whole block and chuck it in the vise. Then take your angle grinder with a nice flap disk and sand down the pulley's edges with it in place. No need to take the pulley out of the housing. It'll spin on its axle, sure, but the difference between it and the angle grinder will be more than enough to see things smoothed out in very short order. With a 220-grit flap disk running fast, you'd be set and ready to go in just a few minutes.

    As for the swivel, a simple loop, sometimes called a Prussic Loop, can be made from a length of 1/2" rope with naught but a couple Fishermen's Bends, sometimes called the Angler's Knot. That'd give you all the flex and swivel you could ask for and you can make it as short or long as you want it. Most decent 1/2" rope will have a Working Load Limit in excess of a half-ton.



    Like with any soft rope, you have to watch out for any kinds of burrs or sharp points on the metal you're lashing to. If there's any doubt, threading the rope through a section of garden hose is always a good way to add serious abrasion resistance. Better safe than sorry.

  11. #34
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    Re: Get Bent

    McMaster Carr has swivel snatch blocks, I get the need for compact so can you substitute a shackle for the hooks?
    P/N 3099T15 is Rated 675#, 5" long, 1/4" wire rope. That should allow straight line pull in your application. Not sure what size wire rope you have on your setup.

    Definitely appreciate the video about soft shackles, have been considering an application of these amazing ropes.
    Last edited by _Dom; 08-07-2022 at 01:22 PM.
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  13. #35
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by _Dom View Post
    Definitely appreciate the video about soft shackles, have been considering an application of these amazing ropes.
    For safety's sake, I only buy load-bearing rope from places that service the Aborist and/or Maritime communities because those places sell rope you know is going to be of quality. Both trades know the importance of reliable and trustworthy products that can handle a significant load. It's a little more inconvenient than just buying whatever's at the local hardware store, but that peace of mind is mighty nice.

    Making your own soft shackles is fun and easy. A bit of fire hose, or radiator line, is more than enough to take care of any abrasion worries

  14. #36
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    Re: Get Bent

    Just make sure if you use rope, nylon, etc, you remember that some of it can decay if left out in the sun due to the UV's.

    I would use some 1/4" stainless wire rope if I was Sam. It has a 1280 pound working limit and 6400 pound breaking strength. It will last forever out in the environment and you can use a 1/4" x 3 inch swivel rated at 800 pounds

    https://www.e-rigging.com/Steel-Cabl...YaAi5oEALw_wcB

    https://www.e-rigging.com/quarter-in...ivel-eye-block
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    Re: Get Bent

    If one wants to see soft shackles put to hard use, go over to youtube and check out some of the videos by "Matt's Offroad Recovery" in Utah. He uses kinetic ropes and soft shackles to pull the most gosh-awful vehicles and heavy vehicles out of some of the worst stuck places.

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  18. #38
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by shortfuse View Post
    If one wants to see soft shackles put to hard use, go over to youtube and check out some of the videos by "Matt's Offroad Recovery" in Utah. He uses kinetic ropes and soft shackles to pull the most gosh-awful vehicles and heavy vehicles out of some of the worst stuck places.
    Seen a few of those. Pretty good stuff.

  19. #39
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by shortfuse View Post
    If one wants to see soft shackles put to hard use, go over to youtube and check out some of the videos by "Matt's Offroad Recovery" in Utah. He uses kinetic ropes and soft shackles to pull the most gosh-awful vehicles and heavy vehicles out of some of the worst stuck places.
    nice! no scratching the paint, lost pins or rattling around in the truck tool box
    :

  20. #40
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldiron2 View Post
    We can't see enough of the equipment to understand the whole situation, so there isn't much "education" being passed on.

    I have seen some of the old cable-operated farm and construction equipment; got my first look at some heavy stuff when they were channelizing the L.A. River through Van Nuys, a few blocks from where I lived, back when Disneyland first opened. Made governor parts for an 1890 era Case Steamer, got to drive the Best 60 a few times, have winched car parts out of a 200 foot deep canyon, used four snatch blocks to pull the outer 8" diameter gate post (set in concrete) back into position after the side of the road has slipped downhill due to heavy rains.
    Found some neat stuff in the deserts more than half a century ago, have acquired a few pieces since then, and have always been interested in the old stuff.

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    Looks like a Russell grader, Russell was the company Caterpillar bought to make their own grader.

  21. #41
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by shortfuse View Post
    If one wants to see soft shackles put to hard use, go over to youtube and check out some of the videos by "Matt's Offroad Recovery" in Utah. He uses kinetic ropes and soft shackles to pull the most gosh-awful vehicles and heavy vehicles out of some of the worst stuck places.
    Or that HeavyD Sparks fella.

    Ripped the body right off the frame, popping rivets like I pop ibuprofen!

    Those Yankum ropes and shackles are pricey as all get out, but they sure seem to work. The guy literally just tore steel apart, but the plastic rope not only took the load, but excelled at the job! Blows my mind to think that plastic stuff can be so much stronger than steel, but that's kinda hard to deny after seeing steel ripped apart like that!



    Gotta admit, I do like the fancy coatings they put on the stuff to help with abrasion and UV resistance.



    I've made small soft shackles out of Parachute cord and found it a great way to hold light loads. The ones I make from 1/2" woven line are stout, for sure, but also just plain big, too.

    1/4" or 3/8" rope is usually more than strong enough for most applications. As Pat says, you have to be careful about leaving the stuff out in the weather for months on end where the sun can turn it brittle. The upside, though, is that they are so easy to dismantle and stow away in the truck that you really don't mind tearing things down so you can stow it away.

    I've always hated having toolboxes filled with everything that rattles as I go down the road, so using soft line and simple rings has been a huge bonus in that regard. It's not that I need the stuff, but it's just so easy to stow under the seat that you can't really justify not having it since there's no noice or weight to worry about.

    Looking at that snatch block on the first page, I'd have no problem pulling out that pin and removing the hook so I could use a rope loop in its place. You'd have to go over all the edges of the side plates to round them over, making sure there wasn't anything to cut the rope, but it'd be easy work especially for a short-term fix if time is of the essence. A Prusik Loop made from 1/2" rope, or larger, would be more than enough to hold the load in question, moreso if you put it in some kind of hosing to protect against UV and abrasion.

    Then, whenever you're done with it, just pull the pin again so you can remove the rope, keeping it stored in the glove box until you needed it once more.

    If you watch any of the arborist videos, they basically do exactly that. The block is attached to a rope that's attached to the tree as the anchor point. From there, they can raise and lower hundreds of pounds of wood, the snatch block rotating however it wants because the connection to the tree is so very flexible.



    Seems like that's exactly what's needed in this application. While the block certainly needs some smoothing of the rough edges, that's a quick job with an old flap disk. Ten minutes and you're up and running. It'd take longer got get through the check-out at the hardware store than it would to fix the block.

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  23. #42
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    Re: Get Bent

    Another option would be to spool up kevlar winch rope.
    https://www.tacticalrecoveryequipmen...ch-rope-bundl/

    That stuff is amazing - 1/4" rope with 9000# breaking strength!

  24. #43
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by shortfuse View Post
    If one wants to see soft shackles put to hard use, go over to youtube and check out some of the videos by "Matt's Offroad Recovery" in Utah. He uses kinetic ropes and soft shackles to pull the most gosh-awful vehicles and heavy vehicles out of some of the worst stuck places.
    The kinetic ropes he uses are made by Yankum. Though, I'd probably buy the Matt's Offroad Recovery edition one, just to support them. Seems like they do a lot of good stuff for their community.

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  26. #44
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by cwby View Post
    Another option would be to spool up kevlar winch rope.
    https://www.tacticalrecoveryequipmen...ch-rope-bundl/

    That stuff is amazing - 1/4" rope with 9000# breaking strength!
    I have some large Amsteel (Dyneema/Spectra) rope. THAT chit is impressive! I got it from a guy that worked for a crane company. I believe they were using it for lifting wind turbine components. After a certain number of lifts, they toss it and get new rope. I think they did they replaced the ropes at the end of each job.

    It's the same stuff they use in synthetic winch lines, but bigger.

    The drawback is that it's A LOT more prone to abrasion than wire rope. You can get abrasion resistant sleeves to go over the rope. I think most winch lines come with them. I guess it's woven nylon? Maybe woven Kevlar on the fancier ones.

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  27. #45
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    Re: Get Bent

    For the application in the OP, I'd definitely want steel cable for the main part just because it's going to be left out in the sun and rain forever. The new plastic winch lines are fantastic, but I'm pretty sure you have to keep them under protection except when they're being used because the UV rays will degrade them. Even when they're on a truck, the winch is covered to prevent the sun damage as much as anything else - like grit getting embedded during your travels.

    On the block, though, that's just a re-direct pulley and can be taken down when necessary. A simple rope loop in place of the steel hook would be no problem b/c you can just pull the rope free when you're done with it and stick it in the cab until you need it again. I think. Maybe I'm not understanding just how permanent it needs to be installed.

    Still, I love talking about ropes and pulleys, so I don't mind chiming in with my 2 whenever I can.

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  29. #46
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    Re: Get Bent

    Since Sam will leave it outside, that is why I recommend a stainless cable. Plus it is stronger per diameter so he can use a smaller size.

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  31. #47
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    Re: Get Bent

    Quote Originally Posted by _Dom View Post
    McMaster Carr has swivel snatch blocks, I get the need for compact so can you substitute a shackle for the hooks?
    P/N 3099T15 is Rated 675#, 5" long, 1/4" wire rope. That should allow straight line pull in your application. Not sure what size wire rope you have on your setup.

    Definitely appreciate the video about soft shackles, have been considering an application of these amazing ropes.
    That was a good find. The eye wouldn't work though. The other one they had, with a hook, had limited hook diameter (1/2"), which wouldn't allow it over the 5/8 cold roll on the mast.

  32. #48
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    Re: Get Bent

    If you have cable puller/comealongName:  20220808_075636.jpg
Views: 140
Size:  86.6 KB, just borrow this and get it done.

  33. #49
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    Re: Get Bent

    The soft rope pulleys you guys showed are pretty cool. If I didn't have a space problem, they'd be a nice way to go.

    But as it is most times.................I have the weird stuff to deal with.

    I have the components from the pulleys that ruined the rope. So, I figured I'd whip out some pivoting pulleys.......................

    Name:  transpor21.jpg
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Size:  230.8 KB The big thing is the hook opening. I need the 3/4" opening to hook to the thing as built.

    Like most of what I get into...............it turns into a huge day long chore. Everything had to be machined to make it fit together right.

    Name:  transpor22.jpg
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Size:  234.6 KB Quicky tip for anybody that wants to save a bit of setup time. You can drill to a line without setting up to hit the center of the hole. Just plop the square on the line, and move the table to the bit. I hate setup time. I was able to use stops to do repeat operations....another time saver.

    I was just gonna machine the thing out of solid blanks, but I figured the openings wouldn't be rigid enough to take machining. So....................have to make the damn thing so it can be welded together. This shot the layout, and setup time, through the roof

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Size:  204.2 KB None of it will work without a fixture to clamp the parts to, so I scrounged up some 3/4" plate, and squared a block of it.

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    Re: Get Bent

    Name:  transpor24.jpg
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Size:  195.7 KB All of the individual parts had to be machined to fit square, then they're put on the mill table to clamp them to the block for tacking.

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Size:  188.1 KB So...........by about 3 in the afternoon, we gots some parts(sigh). Lovely day........high 90's, 70+* dewpoint. The meter is still running.

    The fitup block was left partly clamped in the ears while welding to hold everything true.

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