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Thread: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

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    6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Miller says they don't recommend running 6010 rod on my 215 Multimatic, bit 6011 is ok. I would like to know the rationale behind such a recommendation [I'm supposing the rod perhaps needs a lot of amps?] Now as to 6011 for a root pass, ... does that play well with 7018 for a final pass or two, and any preparation issues I need to be aware of?
    I'm hoping some of you experienced pros might be able to share with me the whyfor's and the howto's related to this scenario. thanks!
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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Many inverters wont run 6010. It keeps snuffing out. But most any inverter will run 6011 fine. Unless you are doing X-ray tested welds, 6011 for the root pass should be fine

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    My ESAB 161 and Miller Dynasty 200DX will run a 6010 great! Inverters will run a 6010 better than a transformer or buzz box. 6010 is a more difficult rod to run, kinda depends on the results your looking for. I think a 6010 is a deeper penetrating and dryer bead and the 6011 is a softer and wetter bead with lots of penetration swell.
    We've done so much, for so long, with so little. Were now qualified to do anything with nothing !

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    It may have to do how inverters works
    Inverters us a alternating DC or some say one side AC or 1/2 wave at a very high frequency . Cut the amount of copper need for a welder.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by RCWelds View Post
    Miller says they don't recommend running 6010 rod on my 215 Multimatic, bit 6011 is ok. I would like to know the rationale behind such a recommendation [I'm supposing the rod perhaps needs a lot of amps?] Now as to 6011 for a root pass, ... does that play well with 7018 for a final pass or two, and any preparation issues I need to be aware of?
    I'm hoping some of you experienced pros might be able to share with me the whyfor's and the howto's related to this scenario. thanks!

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by welding1 View Post
    Inverters will run a 6010 better than a transformer or buzz box
    Good inverters designed to run E6010 will.

    E6010s require a higher arc voltage to sustain the electric arc than most other electrodes, and most cheap [stick] inverters cannot sustain it, and good inverters not designed for it won't run it either. Most multi-process inverters will not run it very well, unless you're talking about a top-dollar 300A+ unit.

    E6011 has a different cellulose flux composition that reduces this [voltage] requirement which is why most welders, inverters or not, will run it great. As long as you take care in removing the slag from the E6011 bead, there shouldn't be any issue with running E7018 cover pass(es).
    Last edited by Oscar; 08-06-2022 at 08:11 PM.
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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Why does everybody think they have to have a 60XX root? Are we welding pressure pipe with an open root? If it's a lawnmower deck, just weld it.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Why does everybody think they have to have a 60XX root? Are we welding pressure pipe with an open root? If it's a lawnmower deck, just weld it.
    I don't know squat about welding but life has taught me a little about people. I believe those who speced critical welding jobs chose to settle on a consistent spec for rods which wond up being 6010 capped with 7018. They could have speced other rods on various jobs but wisely choose to be consistent. The average Joe looks at all those years of using same 2 rods and interpits that to mean things it actually doesn't, ie they must be the very best. I wish i had a dollar for every time I've seen someone pull up to a shop needing a quick repair weld and as welder drags cables toward job bends over and picked up a half used rod off ground and used it.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Why does everybody think they have to have a 60XX root? Are we welding pressure pipe with an open root? If it's a lawnmower deck, just weld it.
    All I know is that 60xx rods are great at filling a gap that you could never fill with a 7018,

    Sent from my fab shop using a mig welder and a grinder

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    It is easier to fill with E6013 but I can fill with E7018 too.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMan23 View Post
    All I know is that 60xx rods are great at filling a gap that you could never fill with a 7018,

    Sent from my fab shop using a mig welder and a grinder

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by RCWelds View Post
    Miller says they don't recommend running 6010 rod on my 215 Multimatic, bit 6011 is ok. I would like to know the rationale behind such a recommendation [I'm supposing the rod perhaps needs a lot of amps?] Now as to 6011 for a root pass, ... does that play well with 7018 for a final pass or two, and any preparation issues I need to be aware of?
    I'm hoping some of you experienced pros might be able to share with me the whyfor's and the howto's related to this scenario. thanks!
    .
    some inverters will not run 6010 if arc length even 1 rod dia long the arc is unstable, 6011 has flux coating that will give a longer more stable arc length compared to 6010
    6010 flux coating slightly smaller dia than 6011 this has advantage doing root pass on pipe so pipe welders might prefer 6010 for root pass
    .
    a welding machine that gives a stable over 3/8" long arc length will leave more porosity arc marks on part hopefully this gets welded over later. if you
    want a stable arc up to 2 rod diameters (1/4" long arc for 1/8" rod) you often want a machine made to do that with the rod you use. a carbon air arc machine where you
    can pull a 3/4" long 6010 arc usually is not wanted, unless you want to draw arc over painted surface to warm it up so it will wire brush easier. if you manually arc start
    tig weld on a machine that pulls a 3/4" arc you obviously loose argon shielding oxidizing metal so manual or scratch start tig welders generally limit shorter arc length
    .
    some prefer dab dab stick welding machine that is arc auto goes out at 1 to 2 rod diameters to limit porosity. that is welding 1 second at a time hot and waiting a bit to
    cool. this is not for pipe welding, more for relatively non critical welding where you want to weld 16ga or 1/4" just by altering weld technique or fill gaps easier.
    dab dab obviously can leave porosity marks especially if not backing up when welding to melt in previous weld stop porosity area. it be 10x harder if
    arc didnt go out easy over 1/4" arc length. if machine has a stable 3/4" arc length thats great for air carbon arc gouging but not good for tig welding and or dab dab welding
    .
    so a welding machine with too long a stable arc is often not wanted for every type of welding

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMan23 View Post
    All I know is that 60xx rods are great at filling a gap that you could never fill with a 7018,
    Yep, and less likely to get slag inclusions with 601X, and less likely to run into problems with rust/paint/dirt/trash on a lawnmower deck when using 601X.

    I don't use anything but 601X on mower decks.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by welding1 View Post
    My ESAB 161 and Miller Dynasty 200DX will run a 6010 great! Inverters will run a 6010 better than a transformer or buzz box. 6010 is a more difficult rod to run, kinda depends on the results your looking for. I think a 6010 is a deeper penetrating and dryer bead and the 6011 is a softer and wetter bead with lots of penetration swell.
    is ur 161 suffixed w/ an i, or anything? now its the 180i,/180ls/181 or something, and im confused on whats, what. which 180 series is iur 161 ts follwup, and does it weld as good as the 161? i need to do something about 110/220 lil stick inverter. both my maxstars150stl are worn out/problems, as they still tig fine, but have hardly any umph of power on strike the intial arc in smaw mode
    Last edited by 123weld; 08-07-2022 at 05:02 PM.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    ESAB miniarc rouge 180i. It has adjustable hot start and adjustable arc force. Runs 6010 as good as a xmt304.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    ESAB miniarc rouge 180i. It has adjustable hot start and adjustable arc force. Runs 6010 as good as a xmt304.
    thank you. for 850 bucks, that sounds really good

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    I agree a lot. I paid 800 for a 150 Maxm dvi 15 yrs ago. The Esab has more on the top end and all that advanced start sounds good. If I did more work out would be getting one.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    I went to 11 cause of the Max. I found a couple old 10 the other day and in the middle of a 11 job put them in my DC buzzer,,,,, wow, if I was doing this daily and someone hadnt just gave me 50# of 11 would be buying a new box. I am tempted to list my cherry 150 on a forum somewhere and sometimes I am amazed what people want without blink. I would be looking at the 180. Only reason I dont is simply dont use it much, not worth the bother. Lots of times portable I toss in a 3/32 lohy, just so easy to leave a nice finish even in awkward positions.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax View Post
    I don't know squat about welding but life has taught me a little about people. I believe those who speced critical welding jobs chose to settle on a consistent spec for rods which wond up being 6010 capped with 7018. They could have speced other rods on various jobs but wisely choose to be consistent. The average Joe looks at all those years of using same 2 rods and interpits that to mean things it actually doesn't, ie they must be the very best. I wish i had a dollar for every time I've seen someone pull up to a shop needing a quick repair weld and as welder drags cables toward job bends over and picked up a half used rod off ground and used it.
    This is what I do. Its a rare day I run a second pass unless it was to fill a hairy crack, a stripper. II work on a nuke, never see a 10. Totally agree about the only time we ever really see it is in a test booth and the net seems to have a lot convinced it all gets a second or 3rd every time its used. I end up with whole handful of 1/2 burned 11 laying around if I dont watch it so I been making a point to burn them down lately.
    I mention other day, 12 ga to mostly 10 and some frame and it add up to several feet on an old machine. I power cleaned it after but did this 5# maybe and 10 too hot and after the cleaning never really notice how shabby the welding is.
    Same for one of these posts with the deck, take a 7 inch sander and rake over that for couple minutes and brush on some red paint, pour a cup full out and sponge it on, if its warm do it again in couple hrs and dont even see the welding.
    Last edited by Sberry; 08-07-2022 at 05:48 PM.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by 123weld View Post
    thank you. for 850 bucks, that sounds really good
    I had the ESAB 161 stl and it was a nice machine. The 180i blows it away in many ways. The hot start and arc force is way nicer. Bigger dinse connection, digital readout and capability to use a tig remote.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Ability to run 6010/6011 is all due to " Open circuit voltage ". or Higher open circuit voltage. Look it up it's a good read.
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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Rondo View Post
    Ability to run 6010/6011 is all due to " Open circuit voltage ". or Higher open circuit voltage. Look it up it's a good read.
    I disagree. I've read OCV can most definitely help light it off in the beginning, but to keep it lit, the arc voltage after it settles down from the OCV must be sufficiently high. So a high OCV may have a high arc voltage while running, but it is not guaranteed. As the name implies Open Circuit Voltage, only a applies before the arc is fully established. Once the arc is established, or being established, the circuit is no longer open.
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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Good inverters designed to run E6010 will.
    I don't think that is exactly right. I don't think ability to run 6010 makes an inverter good or bad. Running 6010 is a matter of being designed to run 6010. Plenty of well made inverters won't run 6010, but that doesn't mean they are of a lower quality, per se.
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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    I disagree. I've read OCV can most definitely help light it off in the beginning, but to keep it lit, the arc voltage after it settles down from the OCV must be sufficiently high. So a high OCV may have a high arc voltage while running, but it is not guaranteed. As the name implies Open Circuit Voltage, only a applies before the arc is fully established. Once the arc is established, or being established, the circuit is no longer open.
    That's true but I think people use OCV as a proxy for CCV - even if it is not always a good one.

    I know many are determined to run 6010 as it's the "correct rod" but is it really? What is being welded?

    After I read a lot on various forums about how difficult to use 6010s were, I bought some from the US (no local suppliers stocked them) to try them. Aside from that, I have never used a 6010 (or 6011). Even so, farm machinery remained fixed, trailers stayed fixed and sheds remained upright.

    Jack

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Rondo View Post
    Ability to run 6010/6011 is all due to " Open circuit voltage ". or Higher open circuit voltage. Look it up it's a good read.
    When I run 6010 on my engine drive (Miller Big Blue 251D), I typically run it on one of the higher taps with the "Fine" rheostat down around 5% (this setup gives a V-A curve with more "dig" which I typically want when running 6010) ... but with the "Fine" rheostat down at 5%, my OCV is only about 63VDC. (With the "fine" rheostat at 0 the OCV is 58V and with it at 100% the OCV is 88V.)

    It makes the rod "sticky" on startup, but after that, lookout...it'll gouge holes and you can use it like an Oxylance.

    So I would disagree that "ability to run 6010 is all due to OCV." I'd be surprised if any inverter ever gives OCV as low as 58V.

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    Quote Originally Posted by StandarDyne View Post
    So I would disagree that "ability to run 6010 is all due to OCV."
    I agree and some of that is due to what Oscar said regarding the difference between OCV and CCV. There are other factors involved but a higher voltage helps as, in the absence of arc stabilisers, it has to be enough to keep the air/gas ionized.

    I'd be surprised if any inverter ever gives OCV as low as 58V
    You will have to be surprised as in some places, occupational health and safety requires that the OCV be limited. With VRD (Voltage Reduction Device) on, OCV starts at as little as 9V. On some machines, VRD cannot be turned off.

    Jack

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    Re: 6010 vs. 6011 for root pass

    The Maxstar has that. I havnt lined it up against the synchro but did against my DC buzzer. Sometimes I got to wonder, this isnt my first spin with the rod and I hear raves about how good the Max arc is,,, well,,, I actually give the edge to the buzzer.
    I am going to pull an SA out for a start in a while and when I do if I got time I will line it up against the buzzer, I realize it will do things that wont but can set similar and see if there is any night and day difference. My guess is way fewer people can tell the difference in these machines than they think they can if thgey couldnt see them.

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