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Thread: Dual shield help!

  1. #1
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    Dual shield help!

    I'm attempting to run some .045 Lincoln Outershield 71 Elite and it's driving my crazy. I've had similar problems with this wire before and the same with ESAB Dual Shield II 70 Ultra.
    Welding on a Millermatic 252 w/ a Bernard Q300 gun.
    25V @ 350 IPM
    Gas C25 @ 37 CFH
    Stickout approx. 3/4" (I'm not great at keeping that consistent but am trying)
    Metal wire wheeled or ground clean.

    Here's my first weld on this project, vertical up, pretty close to 90 degrees, maybe a slight upward angle, not my best weld but no porosity:

    Name:  20220807_084143.jpg
Views: 306
Size:  136.3 KB

    I made some other welds, was getting some porosity but not enough to make me quit, but got the gun hot enough I stopped to let it cool off.
    These are the next 2 vertical up welds i made, same setup, just about 30 mins later:

    Name:  20220807_084101.jpg
Views: 301
Size:  117.4 KB

    Name:  20220807_084111.jpg
Views: 296
Size:  83.0 KB

    Name:  20220807_084121.jpg
Views: 299
Size:  118.1 KB

    I've had this problem w/ fillet welds in the past, never going vertical up. I've ground welds like these out in the past and the porosity goes all the way to the root.
    In the past, I've tried playing with voltage/speed settings, changing CFH anywhere from 30-50, change my angle, grind metal completely clean instead of just wire brush, etc with very little success.
    I don't believe it to be an issue with my gas because I never have a problem w/ hard wire. Was just using hardwire with this bottle before I threw the 71 Elite in it and had 0 problems.
    I have the same problems whether I'm using the stock mig gun or the Q300.
    I love these wires when they work for me but this intermittent porosity is going to force me to stop using them.
    What am I doing wrong?!?
    Any help/ideas would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
    Last edited by ccs; 08-07-2022 at 12:23 PM.
    Millermatic 252
    1965 SA-200 (burns oil)
    1975 Miller 55g (leaks oil)

  2. #2
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Is this a brand new roll that you yourself opened? If not, how old is the wire and where was it stored? What is your stickout aka contact tip to work distance ?
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  3. #3
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    It's not a new roll, it's several years old. I had problems with both of the rolls (the 71 Elite and the II 70 Ultra since they were new though). It's been stored in a cabinet in my shop. We're generally quite low humidity here in Wyoming. Forgot to list my stickout, I'm trying to maintain around 3/4" stickout. Also forgot to mention it's .045
    Thanks for the reply.
    Millermatic 252
    1965 SA-200 (burns oil)
    1975 Miller 55g (leaks oil)

  4. #4
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Can you move over an inch and lay a bead in a flat part of the same material? See if that is better? Most of my trouble with porosity in dual shield is from impurities in the joint. Iím wondering if there could be just enough crap in that lap joint thatís boiling out to give you trouble.


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  5. #5
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    So I grabbed a piece of scrap and wire wheeled it a little.
    Here's a quick bead in flat position:

    Name:  20220807_104422.jpg
Views: 281
Size:  103.5 KB

    And here's another vertical up in the corner of the I-Beam:

    Name:  20220807_104438.jpg
Views: 285
Size:  134.7 KB


    The joint in question looks? quite clean, but I've wondered the same thing. In the past, I ground out some welds like these and rewelded with the same result. I tried that on the same weld at least 3 times before I gave up. Do you think the impurities would still be there after that many tries? I thought surely I would have burned them out by then which made me think maybe it wasn't impurites? That particular joint was new/clean cut 1" plate welded to used but ground clean channel.
    Last edited by ccs; 08-07-2022 at 12:55 PM.
    Millermatic 252
    1965 SA-200 (burns oil)
    1975 Miller 55g (leaks oil)

  6. #6
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Is C25 the recommended gas for this wire?
    Some dual shields use 100% CO2.


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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Quote Originally Posted by danike110 View Post
    Is C25 the recommended gas for this wire?
    Some dual shields use 100% CO2.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    71 Elite and 71M will run on both 100% CO2 or mixed gas.
    I'm kind of curious now, seem the OP has no problems with a cold gun. And that seems like a lot of gas flow, is turbulence sucking in air? Looks like a bead I tried once with Fabco 802 with no gas as a test.
    Last edited by 12V71; 08-07-2022 at 03:56 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    I have some E81 dual shield and it calls for 40-45 cfh. Which sounds like a lot.


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  9. #9
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Quote Originally Posted by danike110 View Post
    I have some E81 dual shield and it calls for 40-45 cfh. Which sounds like a lot.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's honestly been 10 years since I ran any Lincoln 71M, but I seem to remember if it was pushed too far on amps it would "worm track" with either gas too.

  10. #10
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Looks like no gas
    What type gas are using and cfh?

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
    I'm attempting to run some .045 Lincoln Outershield 71 Elite and it's driving my crazy. I've had similar problems with this wire before and the same with ESAB Dual Shield II 70 Ultra.
    Welding on a Millermatic 252 w/ a Bernard Q300 gun.
    25V @ 350 IPM
    Gas C25 @ 37 CFH
    Stickout approx. 3/4" (I'm not great at keeping that consistent but am trying)
    Metal wire wheeled or ground clean.

    Here's my first weld on this project, vertical up, pretty close to 90 degrees, maybe a slight upward angle, not my best weld but no porosity:

    Name:  20220807_084143.jpg
Views: 306
Size:  136.3 KB

    I made some other welds, was getting some porosity but not enough to make me quit, but got the gun hot enough I stopped to let it cool off.
    These are the next 2 vertical up welds i made, same setup, just about 30 mins later:

    Name:  20220807_084101.jpg
Views: 301
Size:  117.4 KB

    Name:  20220807_084111.jpg
Views: 296
Size:  83.0 KB

    Name:  20220807_084121.jpg
Views: 299
Size:  118.1 KB

    I've had this problem w/ fillet welds in the past, never going vertical up. I've ground welds like these out in the past and the porosity goes all the way to the root.
    In the past, I've tried playing with voltage/speed settings, changing CFH anywhere from 30-50, change my angle, grind metal completely clean instead of just wire brush, etc with very little success.
    I don't believe it to be an issue with my gas because I never have a problem w/ hard wire. Was just using hardwire with this bottle before I threw the 71 Elite in it and had 0 problems.
    I have the same problems whether I'm using the stock mig gun or the Q300.
    I love these wires when they work for me but this intermittent porosity is going to force me to stop using them.
    What am I doing wrong?!?
    Any help/ideas would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

  11. #11
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    I thought 71 Elite required lower gas flow than some others, but I just found the spec again and it's 40-50 CFH. Maybe I'll try turning it up and try that weld again though I have my doubts as I've tried all the way up to 50 before and I don't think it changed much for me.
    It seems like it happens mostly with fillet welds, I have no idea why?
    Thanks guys.
    Millermatic 252
    1965 SA-200 (burns oil)
    1975 Miller 55g (leaks oil)

  12. #12
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Looks like no gas
    What type gas are using and cfh?

    Dave
    :

  13. #13
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Ok thank you.

    You point problem.
    Most time you need 50 cfh and I use CO2 as work better back 1980 and never used anything else since.
    I would avoid any wire that need some other than CO2 gas.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Lis2323 View Post

  14. #14
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    The other part put black paper over the voltage meter you read the meter with hood on. Makes life simpler.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
    I thought 71 Elite required lower gas flow than some others, but I just found the spec again and it's 40-50 CFH. Maybe I'll try turning it up and try that weld again though I have my doubts as I've tried all the way up to 50 before and I don't think it changed much for me.
    It seems like it happens mostly with fillet welds, I have no idea why?
    Thanks guys.

  15. #15
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    I've had similar problems with 71M and 100% CO2. It was corrected by increasing the gas flow.
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    The dual shields are normally designed to drag the bead but run ok if you don't when in position but vertical up will be more straight in or a slight push and will need more gas. 35-40 and a little less stick out. Wouldn't hurt to increase the nozzle opening size either.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Trying to think about this a little, I keep walking past the vertical weld I made on the piece of scrap earlier. That's not a real different setup than the filet weld that is full of holes. If my issue was gas flow, shouldn't they both be bad?
    Millermatic 252
    1965 SA-200 (burns oil)
    1975 Miller 55g (leaks oil)

  18. #18
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Quote Originally Posted by scsmith42 View Post
    I've had similar problems with 71M and 100% CO2. It was corrected by increasing the gas flow.
    Were those problems intermittent or constant out of curiosity? Thanks
    Millermatic 252
    1965 SA-200 (burns oil)
    1975 Miller 55g (leaks oil)

  19. #19
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Those aren't worm tracks. Worm tracks can be fixed by lowering the voltage, but that's not the situation here. This looks like lack of gas coverage. Are you welding outdoors? It really looks like your shielding gas is blowing away. Turn up the gas and use a wind block if there's too much air current/wind/breeze

  20. #20
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    It's inside my shop, zero air current.
    Millermatic 252
    1965 SA-200 (burns oil)
    1975 Miller 55g (leaks oil)

  21. #21
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
    Were those problems intermittent or constant out of curiosity? Thanks
    Intermittent.
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  22. #22
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Fluxcore needs more gas than solid wire. Fluxcore is faster than any other command type of welding

    Sorry about post did prof read
    My last post should said
    .
    The other part put black paper over the voltage meter you can not read the meter with hood on. Makes life simpler.
    .
    Most try to set the weld voltage by meter on welder. The charts take voltage reading at the tip and weld.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by ccs View Post
    It's inside my shop, zero air current.

  23. #23
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    Fluxcore needs more gas than solid wire. Fluxcore is faster than any other command type of welding

    Sorry about post did prof read
    My last post should said
    .Most try to set the weld voltage by meter on welder. The charts take voltage reading at the tip and weld.

    Dave

    i bought a roll of dual sheild to mess around with and dont recall using a alot of gas flow. certainly not even close to 50cfh. probly like 20 or so. my first ever dual shield looked fine from what i could tell

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  25. #24
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    Looks great.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by cornchip View Post
    i bought a roll of dual sheild to mess around with and dont recall using a alot of gas flow. certainly not even close to 50cfh. probly like 20 or so. my first ever dual shield looked fine from what i could tell


  26. #25
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    Re: Dual shield help!

    I had trouble running the same wire (I believe) a month or two ago, one of my issues was gas leaking at the oring where the euro torch connected to the machine, if you have a handheld flowmeter, check the actual gas flow at the nozzle, I almost guarantee its not the same as what's showing in your tank flowmeter



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