[walker]

No question, lots of slop potential.

Loose adjustable base, poor magnetic coupling, loose gibs on the ways, less than flat coupling surface, too much feed pressure, chips between the base and the material, play between pilot pin and cutter, cutter sharpness, material surface finish all come into play.

Never said you couldn't drill a hole without the pilot pin.

The chances of drilling an accurately placed, high quality hole using a pilot pin are much better than drilling without one. Time is money. I don't have the time to screw around with the issues of not using one.

This ^^^

Too much overhang plus play in the jibs. Get the manual out, adjust the jibs, get the right adapter and you should be fine. Also, 5/16" is not a lot of steel for the magnet to hang on to. Get a chunk of 1/2" and clamp it on top, or underneath the magnet. This will allow the magnet to grab to its full potential. It should tell you this in the manual as well.

 

[Robert Hall]

Keep in mind you can also rotate the drill motor on its base 180 degrees. I try to keep the cutter close to the base.

Just have to undo the motor bolts and flip it around. It's nice to have a little help to hold the motor to align the bolts for reinstallation

 

[7A749]

I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say simply not enough rigidity with the adaptor, in addition to everything already mentioned above. There might be some play in the arbor, and it doesn't take much to throw things off when pressures and torque enter the picture. I dunno the tolerances you machined it to, but it may be the root cause of the problem. Too much extension from the spindle and runout combine to create oscillation at the cutting face of the tool.

Only reason I say this is because I have used several annular cutters without guide pins on my milling machine. I use an end mill holder to chuck them and have never had issues with chatter, vibration or wandering. Once the table is set in position and everything tight, it sinks holes all day long with no problems. I run them under 400 RPM. My mill only has eight speeds so I have to settle for around 355 or 178.


You may have to remove the chuck and get a specific annular cutter adapter. All the info Miller has posted is right on the money. If you don't have a rigid setup and good attachment to the base material, etc, you'll be fighting a variety of different problems. Again, the setup I use in my mill works perfect, but it's quite rigid for what it is. At one time, I had a Jacobs 3/4" chuck I used with an MT to #9 B&S adapter in my mill. It never ran very well, always had runout at the face of the drill. Just the nature of the setup.

IMHO of course

 

[Knick]

I recently picked up a Milwaukee magnetic drill, with the 4203 adjustable base and 4262-1 3/4" chuck. Its worked great so far with standard twist drills, but I have not had any luck using Hougen annular cutters. I picked up a few Hougen 12216 1/2" annular cutters to use on a 5/8" thick welding table, and was able to fab up an adapter to use the cutters with the mag drill.

Here's a pic of the drill:



...and the adapter with the cutter:





I've tried using the setup on a piece of 5/16" (may be as thick as 3/8") steel, and the cutter will begin cutting well enough initially, but suddenly "grab" the material with enough force to physically shift the base on the mag drill. Now, it isn't actually moving the magnetic base, but is moving the adjustable portion of the base. It does the same thing when tried in a decent sized drill press. I am using lubricant, cutting speed is between 250-300 RPMs, and I am not applying too much pressure on the downfeed. The material (and mag drill) is well clamped/attached to a 1/2" thick welding table, and the cutter is brand new.

Here's what the holes look like:





I have no issues using the Milwaukee with standard twist bits, just the annular cutter. Now, I have not tried using the pilot, so I am not sure if this is contributing to the problem or not. The reason I haven't been using the pilot is it only came in today, so I will be using it in my next attempt.

Any suggestions? The bit still looks identical to the others I have, with no damaged teeth, and still feels "sharp". These cutters are simply too expensive to damage, so I don't want to mess them up when I get ready to drill through my other table.

First off, is that first picture your set up? It looks like you have a thin piece of plate on top of what you are trying to drill.
the last pictures look like there is some coating on the piece you are trying to drill?

Am I missing something?

 

[Sandy]

Just looking down the road here into the future.

1) If you drill a relief divot for the pilot pin and that thing takes off walking circles like it has done so far, there's a chance that you could end up bending a pilot. Not a show stopper but things like that add to the days frustrations.

2) I see those are the two inch cutters. Keep in mind the pilot pin will be 2 inches plus the shank height long. That means that you should have a bare minimum of 2 inches of free space up into your adapter/tool holder for the pilot to travel up into. The reason I say minimum is that's if you don't run with the push spring. Add the push spring and you'll need much more yet.

3) I guess a guy could use the 2 inch cutters, with the pilot, with less than the 2 inches of free space as long as you understand fully that you'll not be able to drill anything thicker than the free space travel you do have. Or don't use the pilot pin. Of course the ease of lining up using the pilot is one of the several attractions for annular cutters to start with.

Just thinkin.

 

[Jason280]

I was able to get the adapter drilled out for the pilot, just have to find a spring the correct diameter. I played around with the drill and cutters today, and had pretty much the same success. This time, I simply tried drilling directly into the table itself (which is around 1/2" thick). I repositioned the drill body up one slot, but I didn't flip it around to put the bit actually closer to the base.

The annular cutter is still doing the same thing, so I am beginning to think it may be the adapter...even though I am not sure how that would be. It drills fine with regular twist bits, just has trouble with the cutters. I tried a second cutter, just to make sure there wasn't an issue with the first, and it does the same thing.

Looks like fate may not want me using them with this drill!

 

[7A749]

The adapter is creating runout and oscillation at the face of the tool. It's too long and loses rigidity being chucked in the jaws of a standard drill chuck. If you put an indicator on that cutter at it's leading edge, I bet you have runout. Even the shaft of the arbor isn't very big by the looks of it. The jaws of a drill chuck can only grip it to a certain degree. That's a reason it's not usually good practice to run an end mill in a Jacobs chuck. It's not going to hold it rigidly like a tool holder will. Especially when subjected to side bearing loads.

Sure it'll work and I've done it more times than I can recall, but only with medium diameter tools and shallow cuts. Also, an annular cutter actually machines the material, while a twist drill acts more as a "chisel" if you will in comparison. More rigidity is needed to support it and keep it from vibrating.

Get a standard annular cutter adapter for the spindle of your drill motor. I bet the problem goes away

IMHO of course

 

[Jason280]

I actually checked runout when I first tried the adapter, just to make sure it was turning "correctly" in the chuck. Runout was less than 0.003" at the most...



...of course, this measurement was made at the adapter, and not at the end of the cutter.

Get a standard annular cutter adapter for the spindle of your drill motor. I bet the problem goes away

This may be my best option, but I'd hate to spend $100 on ane and it not work correctly. Is this what I would need?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Milwaukee-4...r-Arbor-to-Weldon-Shank-/121672224756?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c543acff4

 

[7A749]

I'm not completely sure on the adapter, it looks ballpark to me, but I would check with the seller first to insure it has compatibility with Hougen cutters. I think that will give you the most rigidity for your current setup. .003" at the OD of the arbor might not be concentric with the ID and even that amount will be magnified at the tool face once spinning. That, and the jaws of a drill chuck are designed to hold drills, not machining tools or arbors that hold them. Any lack of rigidity or runout at the jaws will be greatly magnified at the end of the tool. It doesn't take much to make a big change at the other end. Being too, that the annular cutter needs to run very true and in a precise path, a standard twist drill wouldn't be nearly as affected as the cutter would be under the same circumstances. A drill more or less chisels the material away. An annular cutter machines it.

At least as far as my limited knowledge of tool theory goes.

I've run annular cutters in a hougen drill specifically set up for them a couple times, but have mainly run them in my mill, using an end mill holder directly into my spindle. It's basically the same principle. The smaller diameter shaft of your arbor chucked in the Jacobs chuck jaws is likely vibrating once under load, and I bet you have some runout at the face of the cutter because of it. Drilling machines specifically designed for use with annular cutters also generally have an additional support attached to the spindle to maintain optimal rigidity. Your cutters are also very long. All the little things add up, and if you start with a runout problem or lack of rigidity at the spindle, it's going to increase at the end of an elongated cutting tool. Any lack of rigidity is thereby transferred into energy. This is most commonly seen as tool chatter, wander, deflection or a combination of such.

A boring bar making a deep pass in a workpiece held in a lathe chuck is a perfect example. Any lack of rigidity turns into vibration, which in turn causes the cutting edge of the tool to chatter or skip against the workpiece. Using the largest diameter boring bar, protruding to the absolute minimal distance necessary to complete the cutting pass significantly reduces the chance of these things happening. After you have witnessed a vibrating boring bar pull a piece of spinning metal out of a lathe chuck and go flying, you'll have a very real understanding how even small discrepancies can create very big problems resulting in the destruction of the workpiece, tooling, equipment and most importantly could cause injury or death to the operator or others.

Hopefully this made sense. Kind of an extreme example, but the principle is the same, no matter if you're spinning the work in a lathe, or using a spinning tool to cut it.

You may wanna contact Hougen and see what they have. I would shop around for one if you planned on using annular cutters on a regular basis. If you have a lot of holes to drill, it's definitely the way to go. It would pay for itself in the first job, then you can put the Jacob's chuck back on for standard twist drills.

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but everything I'm seeing so far leads me to believe the arbor adapter just isn't going to be rigid enough to handle the annular cutter. Maybe see if a local tool store (perhaps Fastenal, Grainger, etc) can get one in for you to try and see. You should be able to return it if it didn't fix your problem, but I'm pretty sure it will.

IMHO of course

 

[Jason280]

I'm going to call Hougen tomorrow and ask their opinion.

As far as as the tool goes, we made it on a friend's lathe. The internal "hole" was made with a boring bar, so it should be concentric. I see what you mean about the rigidity though, it makes sense. I may even speak with Milwaukee, and see what they suggest.

Odd thing is, the cutter will begin making a clean cut through the surface of the piece, it doesn't immediately begin "wobbling" in the cut. The initial cut is round and correct, just at some point it "grabs" and all hell breaks loose.

 

[7A749]

Huh. Yeah, check with Hougen and Milwaukee. I'm pretty sure the Weldon shank to MT adapter is what you need.

Hougen is about 40 minutes east of where I live, in Schwartz Creek MI. It's a suburb of Flint.

When that bearing race I was turning came out, it ran ok for a little bit, but I was using a boring bar that was WAAAY too small in diameter for the cut I was making and far too much protrusion for the length of cut. It started to vibrate, and next thing I knew, the entire ring popped out of the chuck, smoked the boring bar and took a ride down the shop. Amazingly enough, I was able to save it since I wasn't to finish dimensions yet. I was far more lucky that thing didn't fly out of the chuck and take half my head off.

Lesson learned. Now, I'll use the biggest bar I have if it fits in the hole. I've even seen guys weld large weights to bigger bars to dampen vibration on long cuts.

You got a lot of length working against you with the shaft chucked in the drill chuck being the weakest point of contact. All that stuff adds up and once the teeth of the cutter start taking a full load, you get the grabbing likely caused by deflection and vibration. The edges of an annular cutter do not cut, just the face. Clearances are tight. It wouldn't take much to bind it up in the hole, even if it's shallow. As was mentioned by another member, if the shank happened to twist in the drill chuck, this could cause binding as well.

Even hole saws not set up as rigid as you can get them and running at too high an RPM sort of do the same thing. They start vibrating, and then they wanna wander.

Next thing you know, they bust off a bunch of teeth or get lodged in the half cut hole.

Lots of cussing to go around there :laugh:

BTDT

I'm pretty sure the Weldon shank adapter will be the ticket. Buy once, cry once.

Then run huge annular cutters in your mag drill whenever you want

Good luck with it man.

 

[Jason280]

Thanks, I appreciate the help!

 

[DanD78]

I Got this adapter through McMaster Carr. Like everyone has said. Your set up is not ridgid enough.

Dan D.

 

[M J D]

View attachment 1133441

I Got this adapter through McMaster Carr. Like everyone has said. Your set up is not ridgid enough.

Dan D.

. Is that a #3 taper? Some of the Milwaukee motors used that taper, altho I believe the op took the threaded chuck.

 

[IronPeakWelds]

I have the same drill and I use it all the time with both annular cutters and twist drills.

1) move the motor up to the center of the rack

2) In the picture you can see five small set screws that that can be adjusted to keep the rack and motor tight and true with the base as it moves up and down. These screws all need to be as close to equally tightened as possible.

3) If you raise the drill/cutter off the material, let go of the handles and the drill motor falls or slides under it's own weight down to the material - THOSE SCREWS ARE NOT TIGHT ENOUGH and the hole cutters will wander as shown in your pictures. You should have resistance moving the drill up as well as down.

Most other mag drills have an additional bearing mounted to the base that helps keep the motor/cutter from wandering. These drills don't have the extra support so the rack the motor sits in has to be very snug to the point where you are pushing the cutter down hard to the material

 

[soutthpaw]

View attachment 1133441

I Got this adapter through McMaster Carr. Like everyone has said. Your set up is not ridgid enough.

Dan D.

Is that a MT3 shank? I have a very similar drill and want to get a annular cutter adaptor for it. Looks like either that eBay one or the one you have is exactly what I need, do you have a link our part number by chance?

 

[walker]

That is what the right adapter looks like. Still think yours is rigid enough?

 

[soutthpaw]

Re: Problem with annular cutter & Milwaukee mag drill

View attachment 1133571

That is what the right adapter looks like. Still think yours is rigid enough?

Completely different design. Though mine is similar to the OP, it's not the same. With both of our models there is NO extended shaft. The bit is always rigth at the base of the drill. Probably actually more rigid than an extended shaft through a bearing. Oldmachinist made a post #4 that shows correct adapter that I think is the same as that ebay link in this post. If it didn't work for annular cutters I doubt Milwaukee would have made a Chuck for them. http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=467791

 

[DanD78]

Is that a MT3 shank? I have a very similar drill and want to get a annular cutter adaptor for it. Looks like either that eBay one or the one you have is exactly what I need, do you have a link our part number by chance?

Here is the part #. They also make it with a #2 taper. http://www.mcmaster.com/#31315A251

It is a #3 for sure. Here is a photo of everything apart. The part just below the drill motor slides up inside and is held in by the spanner nut.

I also have a similar adapter for Milwaukee Steel Hawg cutters. I also use both adapters in my drill press. Probably more than the mag drills.

After looking at the OP's drill again it may not be able to use the Morris adapter. The adapter he made may be as good as it gets. McMaster also sells a chuckable adapter but it requires a 3/4" chuck and will make the stick out issue worse. http://www.mcmaster.com/#31315A254

Sorry for dragging the thread the wrong direction.

Dan D.

 

[shovelon]

The pilot pin and spring MUST be kept in the annular cutter on this model particular style of mag drill. At least a heavy punch mark deep enough to catch the pin. A pre-drilled hole slightly below the surface is even better. If not huge amount of wander will occur like seen in the pics. Only way not to use the pilot pin and spring is with a hole fixture that surrounds the cutter.

Other observations I have had with mine is forgetting it was set in reverse. On occasion a bad grind on the cutter tips just won't bite or cut at all. And it likes threadcut dark sulferized cutting oil on steels.